Sunday, November 15, 2009

ok......

R404410
2 weeks ago
silverback

so thank you for all being so patient. this is what’s going on. we cannot cede the code. i know some of you want that, and we discussed it… it’s way too complicated. i’m sorry. what we are going to do is close the site behind a very basic firewall that will only be accessible with your username and password. i can’t say how long we’ll keep paying server bills (it won’t be cut in the next couple of months tho) so start migrating your writing off to another blog site (wordpress etc). ok?

i got a lot of really kind emails from this group (and some not so kind ones!) and i just want to say that i appreciate what you’ve all brought to this project. and i hope some of you will use your talent and skill to recreate it in a better and more evolved way in a new iteration. seriously. we started this site with zero knowledge and even less money, so there’s no excuse.

peace!


R404411
2 weeks ago
silverback

oh yeah… i forgot the most important part. the site will prolly be wonky for the next couple of days as we get this figured out. so don’t panic, once it’s done you’ll all have access and all the functionality you have now… it just won’t be public.


R404413
2 weeks ago
FloydAnderson

we cannot cede the code. i know some of you want that, and we discussed it… it’s way too complicated.

care to elaborate?

what we are going to do is close the site behind a very basic firewall that will only be accessible with your username and password.

why would you want to do that?


R404414
2 weeks ago
ShiftShapers

thanks stephen, for everything, over all the years…

and just so you all know, there is more than one serious gnn user created and driven websites being discussed and worked on, and don’t worry folks, i am not instrumental in the creation of any of them.

in the mean time, those who are capable of mutually respectful discourse are welcome over at GUN. (this basically means no personal attacks and a minimal level of civility. it does not mean you can’t fucking curse or any goddamn shit like that. give me a fucking break.)

we’d love your contributions as well, Stephen, as well as the rest of the GNN creators. create a GUN account and keep us up to date with your projects and work.

Post Modified: 11/03/09 13:56:04

R404415
2 weeks ago
ShiftShapers

what we are going to do is close the site behind a very basic firewall that will only be accessible with your username and password.

why would you want to do that?

yeah i was under the impression that gnn would be archived statically online indefinitely. is that not the case? are you saying people without a user name and password won’t be able to view content?

Post Modified: 11/03/09 13:49:13

R404417
2 weeks ago
alexander

I have generally refrained from this discussion, but I think there is some lost opportunity and ignorance here. Well, I choose words for dramatic impact :).

There are clear opportunities for third parties to host this site and the domain entirely for free regardless of bandwidth and with whatever access is needed to setup software or even a static site. The best example is ibiblio.org, who does so especially for “controversial” sites. Otherwise this to me seems yet another wasted and lost opportunity, and I believe there were several such in the past.


R404419
2 weeks ago
silverback

the issue from the beginning has been that the articles are no longer up to date and the blogs are inconsistent. the site has basically become a haven for it’s users, which is great. but not a consistent news source that we initially built. it’s time to retire it…


R404422
2 weeks ago
FloydAnderson

How about you give us the real reason Stephen


R404423
2 weeks ago
alexander

I agree and understood for a long time that the site was not what you and Anthony envisioned or originally had intended. As to whether that was actually good or bad is a different question :), but there is little I see to be gained exploring how it came to be the way it is. Retiring it is a valid option, or at least I do appreciate the way you have stated your answer rather than using some excuse about cost and time.

Post Modified: 11/03/09 14:59:48

R404428
2 weeks ago
Fifi_Lamour

Well, if you build a vanity site don’t get all disappointed that you end up with a largely irrelevant vanity site. If you wanted it to be a community run news site, you should have not let your vanity get in the way and dismissed the legitimate concerns raised around 2.0 that needed to be addressed for this to be a serious, community run news site. I hope you understand how your choices (and infatuation with Cinis’ commercial – not community – vision) led to this turning out other than you’d hoped. It’s been interesting observing it all…

Anyway, so long and thanks for all the fish….


R404442
2 weeks ago
silverback

but there is little I see to be gained exploring how it came to be the way it is

no, but i agree that the responsibility lies firmly with us. and the reasons for our failure as a group are legion. but thank you for all your contributions here, alex.


R404443
2 weeks ago
Namaste_Rich

No deal on the code, huh? How about a movie deal?

Seriously though, what Shifty said, thanks for everything over the years. I’ve only been here since 2.0 and the experience has been worthwhile, for sure. There are some really smart people on this site I’ve come to admire and appreciate.

And just for conjecture’s sake…to perhaps answer Floyd’s request for elaboration on why you would not release the code…

The answer is simple. It is not their (GNN’s) code to cede. The code was written by Jessey and, at the time, the company known as Stolen. They own the rights to that code…and any company worth a damn would make that very clear to any client using their product – the client cannot sell or release said product without the expressed written consent of blah blah blah…

Jessey won’t give his so called “work of vanity” out for free. And why would he? I wouldn’t.

This situation is kind of like what Jules Winfield said in Pulp Fiction – the Diner scene:

...I can’t give you this case. Because it don’t belong to me. Besides, I’ve been through too much shit over this case this morning to just hand it over to your dumbass.

Way…way too much shit. And that is the painful truth of GNN. And yes…it sucks. But that’s the way it is. Time to move on to other things. That’s what the GNN founders are doing. And I say good luck.

Later all! Catch me on Facebook! LOL

Post Modified: 11/03/09 19:46:18

R404445
2 weeks ago
ShiftShapers

Way…way too much shit. And that is the painful truth of GNN. And yes…it sucks. But that’s the way it is. Time to move on to other things. That’s what the GNN founders are doing. And I say good luck.

seconded.

Catch me on Facebook!

i can’t keep up with who i have and have not connected with yet in that freaky-ass place, but if you want to find me there, i’m right here.


R404446
2 weeks ago
ShiftShapers

the main reason you didn’t see me post a lot about my local activities here on gnn is because i have zero “friends” here on gnn who are local to my area, or maybe one or two.

facebook i use primarily for above-ground local organizing. you’ll get a lot better of a feel what i am up to from that. i’ve often been criticized here for reposting so much and being so impersonal and grand in scope, but that was more of a result of me posting for who i perceived my audience to be than anything else. i network nationally and globally on facebook but mostly locally. gnn was the opposite for me.

but anyways, facebook scares me. most of the people i know are there under their real name and have anywhere from a few dozen to a few hundred to even a few thousand photos of themselves there. i recently posted a challenge to my facebook friends to find a real picture of me on there, which there actually is exactly one that i am aware of, a picture that has also appeared here on gnn.

anyways, myspace and facebook scare me but i still use them because they’re powerful tools and because i do my best to keep any real info about me out of them, with 99% success.


R404447
2 weeks ago
ShiftShapers

of course anyone following my posts from facebook to gnn or elsewhere would have little trouble figuring out my legal name.


R404460
2 weeks ago
GWHunta

Bottomline: As editor, I am willing to go to jail and to lose everything we have worked for to protect any and all political speech on this site.
~anthony


R404463
2 weeks ago
GWHunta

never regret anything that made you smile

Peace,


R404465
2 weeks ago
SunTzu

Thank you for keeping us informed of your descisions.

i have one question – what exactly is the objection to releasing the content of the site to be archived?

It appears the site owners actually want to do away with the content. It could easily be stripped of GNN branding and then the info collected here over the years could still be made available. Your decision makes it look like you are trying to prevent people viewing the info presented here over the years. I’m not saying that you are actually doing that but that is what it looks like


R404511
2 weeks ago
tango

pull the plug already.


R404548
2 weeks ago
ShiftShapers

It appears the site owners actually want to do away with the content.

hence their encouragement of migrating your work/writings to elsewhere…

you should have seen BlackPacker freak out and drop like 55 blogs all at once over at GUN, the entire Guerrilla Camping series and everything that goes along with it. we’re happy to host it.

i was hoping content would be archived by gnn so i wouldn’t have to bother migrating my old articles like the police state one, the global revolution ones, the ungdomhustet one, the port militarization resistance one, etc., because that’s going to mean having to reformat everything (some of which is messed up anyways as specifics of textile protocol were switched around within gnn).


R404551
2 weeks ago
SunTzu

the point is that making the content available without GNN-branding is a relatively easy task – as easy as coding a new ‘firewall’ to prevent “outside access” which they claim they are going to do – 2 simple scripts; 1 to strip all occurrences of the term GNN and another to churn-out all the pages stored in the content-database which could then be zipped and distributed to interested parties. That way someone else could host it as a static archive- with no trace-back to GNN so no one would have to know where it all originated from

so the question is

What is it specifically about the content that makes them want to disappear it down the memory hole?

Post Modified: 11/04/09 13:49:56

R404552
2 weeks ago
SunTzu

Is it as MD says:

The Ford Foundation is a laundromat. All those so-called Sponsors were/are laundromats. The money they were spending was GWoT money and the goal was just to massage the Information Environment.

Remember the extent to which voracious posters were peddling violence?

On top of that there was a gig going to spin Corporate Disinfo Campaigns as if they were Radically Counterculture.

And there was a lot of fear-mongering too.

It’s been really interesting. Again, I’m surprised it too the sponsors as long as it did to admit to themselves that something was backfiring. Everytime I blew something up, in fact.

We definitely blew a lot of sh*t up.


R404556
2 weeks ago
ShiftShapers

here’s my question, stephen:

does GNN as a brand (as in you guys) own user-written articles, or do the authors retain explicit ownership?


R404558
2 weeks ago
aganunitsi


R404559
2 weeks ago
johnnycivil

Thanks GNN, you have proved that the NET is more dangerous than no net to historical remembering or experience, something I have long suspected. I find much research far more circumscribed on the Net already then in dusty old books. This is odd though, clearly the ‘founders’ only motive is to protect their ‘reputations’ within the MSM...

see u on the flip side


R404574
2 weeks ago
desultory01

does GNN as a brand (as in you guys) own user-written articles, or do the authors retain explicit ownership?

LOL! Like they give a fuck about your stupid little articles. You are a fucking trip man! I thought when you started your own site that you would ease up your death grip on their nut sacks a little. Guess not.


R404580
2 weeks ago
sisyphus

are all now safe from the banhammer and therefore time to start outing people? because this desultory01 guy sure sounds familiar


R404581
2 weeks ago
sisyphus

I can’t believe I made it pretty much to the end without getting banned, btw. And fuck all you guys, especially excusemyassgasm.


R404585
2 weeks ago
desultory01

I’ve been outed sis, sorry you missed it.


R404586
2 weeks ago
sisyphus

fag


R404587
2 weeks ago
Namaste_Rich

And fuck all you guys...


R404591
2 weeks ago
Namaste_Rich

pull the plug already.

That’s really fucking disgusting, Tango.

Edited for fucktingency.

Post Modified: 11/04/09 20:27:17

R404601
2 weeks ago
sisyphus


R404602
2 weeks ago
sisyphus


R404603
2 weeks ago
Namaste_Rich

Truth can Fuck.


R404604
2 weeks ago
FloydAnderson

R404605
2 weeks ago
Namaste_Rich

SissyFuck – time to start outing people?

Fuck…I got a fucking audio tap from when Fennec kept fucking calling Anthony after he got fucking banned. Remember that fucking shit? What a fucking shit storm that was…

Fuck that was some fucking good times.

Here’s the fucking clip:


R404608
2 weeks ago
Namaste_Rich

How about you give us the [fucking] real reason Stephen

the site has basically become a [fucking] haven for it’s users

Oh fuck…

It all makes perfect fucking sense now…

Post Modified: 11/04/09 20:39:51

R404609
2 weeks ago
FloydAnderson

R404611
2 weeks ago
Namaste_Rich


R404618
2 weeks ago
FloydAnderson

...

Post Modified: 11/05/09 19:37:02

R404620
2 weeks ago
remarcus

cant find the video…

pussies

It was a pretty big year for fashion
a lousy year for rock and roll
The people gave their blessing to crimes of passion
It was a dark, dark night of the collective soul
and I was somewhere out on Riverside by the El Royale Hotel
When a stranger appeared in a cloud of smoke
I thought I knew him all too well
He said now that I have your attention
I got something I wanna say
You may not wanna hear it, I’m gonna tell it to you anyway
You know I’ve always like you boy
Cause you were not afraid of me
Things are gonna get mighty rough here in Gomorrah-by-the-Sea

Ya said it’s just like home
It’s so damn hot I can’t stand it
My fine seersucker suit is all soaking wet
And the hills are burning
and the wind is raging
and the clock strikes midnight in the Garden of Allah
In the Garden of Allah

Nice car
Ah, I love those Bavarians
so meticulous
Y’know I remember when things were a lot more fun around here
When good was good and evil was evil
Before things got so fuzzy
I was once a golden boy like you
And I was summoned to the halls of power in the heavenly courts
And I dined with the deities who looked upon me with favor,
for my talents, my creativity
and we sat beneath the palms
in the warm afternoons and drank the wine
With Fitzgerald and Huxley
and they pawned the biting phrase from the tongues hot with blood
and drained their pins of bitter ink
Vainly reaching for the bottle full of empty Edens
Branded especially for the ones who had come with great expectations
to the perfumed halls of Allah, for their time in the sun

And we were stokin’ the fires and oilin’ up the machinery
Until the Gods found out we had ideas of our own
And war was coming and the Earth was shaking
and there was no more ruin in the Garden of Allah

Today I made an appearance downtown
I am an expert witness because I say I am
And I said gentlemen, and I use that world loosely
I will testify for you, I’m a gun for hire,I’m a saint, I’m a liar
Because there are no facts, there is no truth
Just data to be manipulated
I can get you any result you like
What’s it worth to you?
Because there is no wrong, there is no right
And I sleep very well at night
No shame, no solution, no remorse, no retribution
Just people selling t-shirts
Just opportunity to participate in the pathetic little circus
and winning, winning, winning

It was pretty big year for predators
The marketplace was on a roll
and the land of opportunity
spawned a whole new breed of men without souls
This year notoriety got all confused with fame
and the devil is downhearted babe, cause
there’s nothing left for him to claim

He said it’s just like home
It’s so low-down I can’t stand it
I guess my work around here has all been done

And the fruit is rotten, the serpent’s eyes shine
as he wraps around the vine,
in the Garden of Allah

don heley, believw it

Post Modified: 11/04/09 23:49:27

R404621
2 weeks ago
remarcus

pussies


R404656
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

Like they give a fuck about your stupid little articles.

apparently AJ and the infowars crew does, as do the folks at Get Educated, Uruknet *, Toward Freedom, and others, but whatever…

I thought when you started your own site that you would ease up your death grip on their nut sacks a little. Guess not.

wow i got a death grip on their nuts and i don’t even knwo it? how so?


R404731
1 week ago
Dilated_Rebel

Something tells me that had we all bought more t-shirts and movies, GNN would still be operating normally.


R404739
1 week ago
silverback

what exactly is the objection to releasing the content of the site to be archived

none. you should start moving it off and re-posting or archiving.


R404781
1 week ago
aganunitsi

And when you move your threads off to another site, please make sure to keep your “pages” links at the very goddamn bottom of the thread. The farther down people have to scroll, the better – it’s the GNN way.

Actually, just move every GNN thread to a single page 10 miles deep. Floyd’s blogs go at the bottom but he gets a link at the top labeled “click for express elevator to the 9th circle”.


R404789
1 week ago
Darios

So I read that Shifty had set up a new site and I thought – fantastic!

Then I read the moderation policy….....

>_<


R404806
1 week ago
Draconis

Hm.

Well… Saw this coming from several miles away. But GNN has been dead to me for a good fucking while now.

For what it’s worth… I will miss it. Particularly Gee En En Wun Point Oh daze… Ah, damn… Back when we all thought revolution was possible. Now it’s all been coopted by “Change”. Heh… Oh, I’ve become such a bitter, bitter man this past decade…

All you cool chaps and gals, you know who you are, keep on being cool. The rest of you can fall off the edge of the Earth into a flaming pit of infinite oblivion. }=-]

Any of you that has any spit left in you… Forget this revolution shit. Blackpacker is doing what we should all be trying to do, and then we can work from the ground up. Anyway… All old hat.

Take care.


R404814
1 week ago
Fifi_Lamour

Darios – A very sincere thanks for the effort you put in back in the day…just thought I’d say that since we’re reaching the end of the…um…experiment.


R404827
1 week ago
Darios

Draconis – I never gave up. I just went where the action was…....which wasn’t here, and it definitely isn’t in some anarcho-collectivist site where a dozen major and controversial philosophical and political positions are already ingrained in the damn moderation policy….

Fifi – that’s very much appreciated. Do stay in touch. That goes for all of you:

http://i-squared.blogspot.com


R404846
1 week ago
Fifi_Lamour

Thanks Darios – I appreciate the link and will be checking out your blog to see what’s up in your neck of the woods.

What I used to like about this site was how peeps here would give on the ground insight into what was happening locally in their area (and that we were a pretty international contingent). Not in a “oh my god, I’m an awesome anarchist involved in radical action” self-aggrandizing way but in a “this is the shit that’s really happening on the street and I care about where I live” kind of way. That kind of insight (as opposed to inciting) was really useful. The world needs less propaganda and more people talking to each other about reality. And more laughing at the absurdity, always more laughing at the absurdity.


R404847
1 week ago
desultory01

Shitshakers- I think you might have a reading comprehension problem. I was talking about Shillverhack and Anphony. Who gives a fuck about “AJ and the infowars crew”? As to your other question, your death grip is so tight that you think you have to request their permission to access your own articles. THEY DON’T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT YOU OR YOUR STUPID ARTICLES! Hopefully me rewriting that in all caps will help get it through your thick fucking dreadlocked skull.

Dario- Is that your blog? I dig it, added it to my RSS feed.


R404852
1 week ago
AreolaSharonIII

Shouldn’t have let the joos run amuck up in heah, Stevie …

That and Piss Ant should have put forth an honest answer when he was asked; ‘Anthony, is Israel the Third Rail of GNN‘ ... I mean, we get a fucking retarded, and I do mean retarded comic book instead out of the guy?

Funnier still, I think the moron actually believes he created something of worth …

You guys aren’t anything close to real jounalists. Shit, you’re not even entertainers. Definitely a bunch of Rich kids whining about how fucking poor they are … Yeah right.

Post Modified: 11/06/09 10:46:43

R404864
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

Then I read the moderation policy

yeah, what are we ever going to do without our trolling, flame wars, and personal attacks?

i am happy to say that so far moderation has not been necessary, but i’m sure you all are capable of changing that any time you so choose.


R404865
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

oh and for the record, i just think it’s ironic that Infowars ran that article… and funny that neverknwo is on that thread bein’ all like “b-b-but this guy HATES Alex Jone!”


R404866
1 week ago
FloydAnderson

shut up you stupid pussy


R404867
1 week ago
tango

shut up you stupid pussy

Haha, fuck you Floyd.

Hey Sis, eat a bag of dicks.

Rich, you’re cool for an emo fag.

Shifty, [insert random insult]

Take that, motherfuckers.

/Liam is still a cocksucker.

Post Modified: 11/06/09 13:19:12

R404869
1 week ago
sisyphus

a whole bag?


R404870
1 week ago
Darios

“yeah, what are we ever going to do without our trolling, flame wars, and personal attacks?”

There is plenty of scope for coming up with a moderation policy dealing with the above that still allows a wide range of expression.

Instead what I see there is a moderation policy that will only be embraced by people who already agree with you on just about everything and it will terrify just about anyone else, especially people who only drop by out of curiousity


R404871
1 week ago
tango

a whole bag?

Whatever it takes for my last minute push to get banned to succeed.


R404873
1 week ago
sisyphus

post tubgirl then


R404874
1 week ago
sisyphus

how to get banned from even the most hands-off website:


R404875
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

what I see there is a moderation policy that will only be embraced by people who already agree with you on just about everything and it will terrify just about anyone else, especially people who only drop by out of curiousity

how do you get that out of this:

In an effort to create a safer space for everyone participating in this community, these forums are moderated space. Abusive and oppressive behavior and language (towards other users) are not welcome and will not be tolerated. We define abusive and oppressive behavior as any conduct (typically along lines of institutionalized power and privilege) that demeans, marginalizes, rejects, threatens or harms any living being on the basis of ability, activist experience, age, class/income level, cultural background, education, ethnicity, gender, immigration status, language, nationality, physical appearance, race, religion, self-expression, sexual orientation, species, status as a parent or other such factors.

there is nothing ideological about this and in fact i would say that it protects those i disagree with in that i myself should not be on there attacking other users for being members of the ruling class or being israelis, etc.

and as far as scaring others away, let’s compare it to gnn’s (alleged yet unenforced) policy:

We ask you to please refrain from posting any of the following content:

Statements that may place GNN in legal jeopardy.

Examples include conducting or inciting criminal activities, or making harmful and false statements about people.

Pornographic images.

Discussion of porn and sexual topics is welcome, but images that are not appropriate for public display in schools, libraries and workplaces should not be posted.

Repeated verbal abuse or harassment, particularly threats of violence.

Ongoing flame wars.

Public disclosure of private personal information, such as full name, workplace, phone number or email address of another user without their consent.

Content designed to disrupt the operation of the site or its users.

these are actually pretty good guide lines and some should just be common sense. no porn images at GUN either, but i won’t write anything up about that until it happens.

plus, compare GUN’s policy to that of almost ANY website online where you can register and post comments. check out the policy of one of the leading anarchist news sites.


R404876
1 week ago
Darios

Shifty – I don’t know if I can help you if you can’t see what is ideological in your moderation policy.


R404877
1 week ago
FloydAnderson

I see that Gary Niger has signed up over at Shifty’s GUN. lol.

There is plenty of scope for coming up with a moderation policy dealing with the above that still allows a wide range of expression.

Dictator ShitShapers doesn’t like a wide range of expression. He likes death, destruction, and himself.


R404878
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

if taking steps towards making the site feel safer for people who identify as trans or queer or poc etc. is ideological, then i guess i’m comfortable with that.


R404879
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

damn Floyd, thanks. Gary claims to be from Nigeria. but i see your citation is correct. this might end up being our first ban, if this is who it is…


R404880
1 week ago
FloydAnderson

plus, compare GUN’s policy to that of almost ANY website online where you can register and post comments. check out the policy of one of the leading anarchist news sites.

perhaps some of you so-called anarchists aren’t really that into being wild and free after all…....and wouldn’t being anti-hierarchy mean that all accounts have exactly the same power, as opposed to some being allowed to delete user content while others cannot?

Post Modified: 11/06/09 14:32:12

R404884
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

it means voluntary association. look it up. websites are personal possessions. thus anarchists would support the right of people to moderate websites. or do you think free speech means anything goes anywhere?


R404886
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

other projects have taken a different angle. anarchistnews.org was created out of a response to Infoshop.org’s moderation, but then they created a moderated version so people could choose to interact with the madness or have more civil comment threads. i like that model a lot, and though i don’t think i can create two totally separate realms with the same content, just different threads, with the ning stuff. it is possible though that in the near future we will be moving towards providing dual space: moderated and totally un-moderated.


R404887
1 week ago
Fifi_Lamour

Yes, it’s all about making people feel safe…the usual party line trotted out when someone is busy suppressing free speech. He’s doing it for the children…. It’s all highly paternalistic and narcissistic and a means to make sure that no one can challenge his ideological twaddle or damage the rather shallow image he’s trying to construct of himself.


R404888
1 week ago
Fifi_Lamour

Hehehe…shifty is trying to talk down to Darios…what a tool.


R404890
1 week ago
FloydAnderson

Yes, it’s all about making people feel safe…the usual party line trotted out when someone is busy suppressing free speech.

those who will give up freedom for security deserve __________________.

do you think free speech means anything goes anywhere?

Yes, with true free speech all is allowed.

pussy


R404892
1 week ago
Darios

“websites are personal possessions. thus anarchists would support the right of people to moderate websites”

Did you just invoke property rights?


R404896
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

no, Darios. I suggest looking into the distinction between “personal possessions” and “private property” (as articulated by Proudhon, among others).

This critique highlights the distinction between libertarian socialists and Libertarians: libertarian socialists advocate freedom while denying, to a greater or lesser extent, the legitimacy of private property, since private property in the form of capital leads to the exploitation of others with lesser economic power, and thus infringes on the exploited class’s individual freedoms. Libertarians, by contrast, believe that liberty is impossible without the enforced protection of private property.

Libertarian socialists believe that productive property should be held communally and controlled democratically. For them, the only moral private properties are personal possessions.

Within the socialist libertarian movement there is much debate about the exact delineation between moral ‘personal’ possesions and immoral ‘productive’ property. Most agree that hard capital such as real estate, machinery, etc., should be considered ‘productive’ property, while one’s lodging and clothing should be considered ‘personal’ property. Disagreement arises about the proper way to characterize property such as one’s home when it is used to carry out business, for example.

Post Modified: 11/06/09 15:33:28

R404901
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

how am i trying to “talk down” Darios, fifi?

and for those of you who care to interact on a community level, GUN is actually very open to criticism and input when it comes from a truly constructive attempt to participate, which simply complaining and attacking certainly is not.

Post Modified: 11/06/09 15:35:20

R404903
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

so let’s look at the example of your lodging, or your home. ideally it won’t be way more than you really need, at the expense of others. but regardless, as a personal possession, is it a realm of free speech? do you think anyone and everyone should be able to come into your home and say whatever they want?

i would however argue that many websites do fall within the realm of commonly-held “productive property,” and this is where things get tricky. that’s why i am at least trying to incorporate the input of GUN users who are serious about building an online community where oppressed and marginalized voices can be heard.


R404904
1 week ago
Darios

You’re on a loser citing Proudhon in that context Shifty.

The slope from de facto to de jure property is very slippery indeed…..

Joe and George go apple picking. Joe works harder and picks twice as many apples as George. Joe then has twice as many apples as George to do with as he pleases. Is Joe exploiting George?

http://anarchyinyourhead.com/2009/03/04/property-as-theft/


R404905
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

oh and flody, i stand in solidarity with that mankey-pig against your objectification and exploitation of his/her image as a tool of oppression to be used against others. poor lil’ fella. free the mankey-pig!

Post Modified: 11/06/09 15:55:56

R404906
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

Joe and George go apple picking. Joe works harder and picks twice as many apples as George. Joe then has twice as many apples as George to do with as he pleases. Is Joe exploiting George?

of course not. that’s about the most simplistic and shallow analysis i can think of, and reinforces the idea that poor people are poor because they don’t work as hard as rich people, which is straight up fucking bullshit and i would have thought you recognized that.

your example is founded on the premise that Joe and George share an unlimited apple field that is held in common and that they both have absolutely equal access to it and ability to pick from it, in all senses, which is not what we are dealing with here.

before the invention of fixed capital and surplus economics, Joe could only be doing wrong if he took more than he could use before it spoiled or if he took so many that George doesn’t even get the chance to pick as many as Joe does.

if there are only 1000 apples to be picked and Joe uses his position of social privilege to take 990 of the apples before George only has a chance to get 10, then Joe is exploiting George. if Joe picks ALL the apples, encloses the apple field and calls it his own, and then tells George that he’ll give him ten apples every day for ever 500 apples George picks for Joe, just because Joe laid claim to what was once a common apple field and declared it his own, then Joe is a capitalist.

Post Modified: 11/06/09 16:21:48

R404907
1 week ago
Darios

“of course not. that’s about the most simplistic and shallow analysis “

About as simplistic as reducing everything to “capital”.

“before the invention of fixed capital and surplus economics”

When was that? Before humans were around, right?

“just because Joe laid claim to what was once a common apple field and declared it his own, then Joe is a capitalist.”

And if Joe alternatively works hard and gets to keep the fruits of his labour, he is also classified as a capitalist, yet the two examples are quite distinct.

Oh “capitalism” – that magic word that’s like clay in the hands of a skilled rhetorician, always delivering the result its user wants. Sometimes its a verb, sometimes a noun, sometimes an adjective. Sometimes it means Corporatism, sometimes it means a radical free market. Sometimes it radically means both. Almost everywhere it is used, its meaning is assumed by the speaker and at the end of their tirade, they conclude “told you so! This is the fault of capitalism!” and all can blissfully part company with their own different idea of that almighty all-monsters-to-all-men in their head, “capitalism” and never once ask why, if the enemy is so obvious and self-evidently evil, it hasn’t yet been slain?


R404908
1 week ago
desultory01

cuz capitalism rocks yo!


R404909
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

When was that? Before humans were around, right?

wtf? surplus economics started with agricultural surplus and the emergence of the division of labor and cities, which occurred after a natural human history on this planet free of these qualities; one that lasted much longer and was much healthier for everyone involved. but even with agricultural surplus, you could only hoard so much. the durability of domesticated grains changed the game on this one, and we saw the emergence of social stratification, but a quantum leap forward was achieved with the invention of fixated and durable fiat wealth in the form of currencies.

if Joe alternatively works hard and gets to keep the fruits of his labour, he is also classified as a capitalist, yet the two examples are quite distinct.

i define a capitalist as someone who owns the “means of production” (or apple field, if you will) whereas the proletariat is defined as the person who does not own any means of production and thus can only sell his or her time/labor to those who do.

yes people throw the word around in many different ways, but by “capitalism” i do not mean achieving abundance through hard work but rather achieving abundance on the back of others who work hard and through inherited wealth gained through previous exploitations.

capitalism is a system of production where the owners of the means of production don’t work yet scrape the vast majority of the created value off of the products of the labor of others (those who do not own the means of production and thus must work for wages from those who do).

that’s about as precise and simplified a definition of my own semantic understanding of capitalism that i can come up with.

means of production should be commonly held. product of personal production, including the full value of the products we as workers produce, should be our personal possessions. the only reason we as workers only get a minimal fraction of the true economic dollar value of the products we produce and services we provide is because we work for someone who owns the means to that production or providing of service. if these means were commonly held, workers would each, individually, own the full economic dollar value of absolutely all of the products of their labor, be they commodified goods or commodified services. that is all i am talking about here. that people who produce things of value for our culture, which can be simplistically categorized as goods and services, should own the full economic value of those goods and services. the only barrier to this is that the means of production are not held in common, but rather, are privately owned by people who don’t work yet get to take the vast vast majority of the value created by those who do.

it’s time to fire the boss.

Post Modified: 11/06/09 16:17:50

R404910
1 week ago
desultory01

i define a capitalist…

exactly


R404914
1 week ago
Darios

“wtf? surplus economics started with agricultural surplus and the emergence of the division of labor and cities, which occurred after a natural human history on this planet free of these qualities;”

Uh huh. As soon as someone collected more acorns, there was a surplus. As soon as someone decided to keep that extra spear they made, there was a surplus. As soon as the hunters brought down a mammoth that would feed everyone for a week, there was a surplus…...

“but even with agricultural surplus, you could only hoard so much”

But nevertheless, these evil early capitalists were still hoarding.

“i define a capitalist as someone who owns the “means of production” (or apple field, if you will) whereas the proletariat is defined as the person who does not own any means of production and thus can only sell his or her time/labor to those who do.”

Uh oh – back to the de facto to de jure slippery slope. And a reminder that your thinking is stuck firmly two centuries in the past.

My computer is my means of production. Does that make me an evil capitalist? What if everyone in the UK owned a (general purpose) computer (not an outlandish possibility). Would the only “proletariats” then be beyond the borders?

“yes people throw the word around in many different ways, but by “capitalism” i do not mean achieving abundance through hard work but rather achieving abundance on the back of others who work hard and through inherited wealth gained through previous exploitations.”

So someone who inherits their house from a parent that acquired it through hard work is exempt in your theology? And if they’re not I’d really like to hear your explanation as to why a parent should not be able to pass their property on to their child(ren)....?

“means of production should be commonly held.”

What does this even mean?


R404915
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

My computer is my means of production. Does that make me an evil capitalist?

not if you’re using it as your own means of production rather than hiring others for wages to make money for you on it and then give you the vast majority their earnings. that would be capitalist.

So someone who inherits their house from a parent that acquired it through hard work is exempt in your theology? And if they’re not I’d really like to hear your explanation as to why a parent should not be able to pass their property on to their child(ren)

i’m not talking about the house you inherit from your parents, i’m talking about the empire you inherit because your last name is Ford. there’s a big difference between inheriting a personal dwelling and inheriting capital on the level of accumulation and concentration that allows you to own factories, etc.

What does this even mean?

that if you work in an apple field, for example, you all own the apple field equally, in common, and thus don’t have to fork over the vast majority of your apples or earnings from selling apples to the asshole who owns the field, lives in the mansion on the side of it, and never lifts a damn finger in the orchard with the workers who create his wealth.

i don’t know why that’s so hard for you to understand. do you actually like having the vast majority of your labor stolen from you by someone else?, or is it that you just happen to actually be the guy who owns the means of production, doesn’t work because others work for you, and thus feel threatened by this discourse?


R404916
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

interesting facts:

Of the 100 largest economies in the world, 51 are corporations; only 49 are countries. Wal-Mart-the number 12 corporation-is bigger than 161 countries, including Israel, Poland, and Greece. Mitsubishi is larger than the fourth most populous nation on earth: Indonesia. General Motors is bigger than Denmark. Ford is bigger than South Africa. Toyota is bigger than Norway.

so basically the Ford family estate inherits an economic empire larger that South Africa’s economy, and you’re telling me these people deserve to be this rich without actually working? (and surely you know your American history at least well enough to not try to argue that Ford somehow created his family’s empire of wealth through his own hard work and that he didn’t fuck over thousands of working class people in the process).

but an opposition to the hereditary transfer of mass amounts of wealth accumulated through the exploitation of the working class, third world countries, and the natural world does not equate an opposition to the inheritance of personal possessions within a family, including family dwellings. the arguments you are pulling out are so old and tired and worn out and used up (not to mention thoroughly deconstructed and critiqued) that frankly i’m a little disappointed you even resorted to them.

Post Modified: 11/06/09 16:54:22

R404920
1 week ago
Namaste_Rich

Tango – Rich, you’re cool for an emo fag.

Not guilty. :)

Fuck, I’m going to miss this place…


R404923
1 week ago
FloydAnderson

all we gotta do is make something similar to GNN. It’s quite possible, though it would require a little work and need some dedication…......and some decent overlords. I like how GNN is not just a forum. What’s great is that the front page presents itself as an organized news site where there are lots of things to see, and then you can go to the madness of the forum.


R404924
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

I like how GNN is not just a forum. What’s great is that the front page presents itself as an organized news site where there are lots of things to see, and then you can go to the madness of the forum.

agreed. though i haven’t learned much about the many ways to change nings around (you should create a frequency clear tv community so you have admin powers and see what you can do. it’s pretty cool. you can create something totally unmoderated too), but from some other ones i’ve been looking at it seems that moving towards a newswire platform isn’t totally unreasonable, though replicating the gnn model closely would be pretty difficult. but an open news wire would be easy enough. i know many of you don’t want anything to do with GUN, so create your own!

is wordpress a totally free system/platform?

GUN’s Open Forum has now been designated an unmoderated space. Please don’t abuse it.

Post Modified: 11/06/09 19:08:11

R404925
1 week ago
FloydAnderson

Yeah I think one of the powerful things about GNN is the site’s structure, once you get the hang of it. It’s got a really cool structure. As far as paying for it, when the proxy whore refuge needs to pay for another year of hosting, they just say…...hey we need some people to donate to keep this thing going. I think that’s the direction this place could go. There could even be an accounting breakdown that everyone can see, and if you pay and your contribution isn’t shown, you can bring that to everyone’s attention. floydanderson.com costs me $107 per year for hosting. it’s cheap.


R404926
1 week ago
FloydAnderson

I think where GNN is superior to most any other interactive websites I’ve seen is the ability we have in the comments to post videos and images rather than just text as is the case on many sites. That really brings this place alive.

so it’s basically the combination of blogs and forums, organized as a news site.


R404927
1 week ago
FloydAnderson

Voting on headlines and articles and videos is cool…..it’s very nice, and then a blog section where anything that’s posted as a blog can make it to the front page without any votes is very cool too…...similar to what GNN’s got but without the overlord gatekeepers controlling the article and videos sections.

Post Modified: 11/06/09 19:20:27

R404928
1 week ago
FloydAnderson

R404929
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

on GUN (or on ning in general) you can post your own photos and videos (even upload from cell phones and upload vids that aren’t already hosted on youtube or something) as well as audio files, post blogs, put rss on your profile page, and much more. i can also change around the blog listings from new blogs to most popular blogs to a few other options (like most comments, or featured blogs, which are admin featured), but i haven’t figured out how to make separate listings for new and most popular yet, though you can probably filter your view of them in the blog section of the site. right now the front page has new blogs. you can vote for videos and photos but i think it just judges popularity of blogs on hits/number of views (or the most comments view).

i have even gone to the lengths of creating an unmoderated space and forum for conspiracy theory. you should be able to add your own group and i’m not going to stop anybody from starting 9/11 Truth group, other conspiracy theory groups, or even Tea Party/912/Patriot/Liberty “movement” groups. groups come complete with their own forum autonomous from the main, categorized forum section.

Post Modified: 11/06/09 19:40:58

R404931
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

once it’s done you’ll all have access and all the functionality you have now… it just won’t be public.

including posting? comments?


R404932
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

and what would it take to get you to write a script that allows us to export our blogs and articles (to csv or xls)?!?


R404936
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

R404965
1 week ago
sisyphus

Gary Niger, lol


R404969
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

i guess the Gay Niggers are welcome as long as they behave themselves. but that’s just against their basic nature. i still never got the personal ED page i demanded. ahh well. the anarchy one is pretty funny at least.


R404981
1 week ago
EGisJUICE

Hey Sis, eat a bag of dicks

a whole bag?


R405025
1 week ago
remarcus

beyond yalls silly infighting and the inane discussion of free speach vs. trolling, back to the point…

anthony speaking through stephen… get it?


R405028
1 week ago
ShiftShapers

hey stephen please at least let us know when the site content is no longer viewable to non-users.

i’m sure a lot of people, like me, never log out and so we wouldn’t even know.


R405029
1 week ago
desultory01

anthony speaking through stephen… get it?

yep

?


R405113
6 days ago
supercanuk

Hi everyone,

It’s been a long time since I have posted here, i took off my blogs long ago, leaving a couple of articles i very proudly published.

Basically my life turned into a quite public one, so some of my freedom to speak my mind was removed. Sad to say really, however, now my public life will shortly turn back to a private one (for good or ill) – and i’ve come back to see GNN certainly not the way i left it.

There are a lot of memories here. A lot of hours holed up in my room getting things published, debating, learning, growing that will be missed.

I read this from thread from a link at the website GUN where i am a new user but haven’t had the time to really get into the fray.

I’m really going to miss GNN a lot and manyof its users.

Hell, some of the people i met on GNN have become life long colleagues who i will likely always keep in touch with. Weird eh?

Okay, well, i just needed to say something about all of this, i can see where silver is coming from, there were a lot of users who helped drive the content and a lot of that went sideways quickly. Its sad really.

Take care all of you, GNN was central in my political development as a young teen, and now as a mid-twenties adult i continue to think back at what GNN taught me and the knowledge i gained from the users, videos, etc will always remind me of a time in my life when i was less busy, happier, and excited to learn about so many fucked up things i was born into.

I hope i can keep in touch with folks, message me for anything while you can but whenever this site is clicked off (scary really to think of it) you can find me on GUN with username “Erik Halliwell”

I decided to discard the anonymity.

Take care,
Erik


R405132
6 days ago
Forbes

R405210
5 days ago
caseclassic

i don’t know why that’s so hard for you to understand. do you actually like having the vast majority of your labor stolen from you by someone else?, or is it that you just happen to actually be the guy who owns the means of production, doesn’t work because others work for you, d thus feel threatened by this discourse?

What exactly to you think GNN was? It was a trash Jewish run media site where a Jew stole the revenue created by the vast majority of people who contributed the labor to make the field grow.

The difference was, the workers were so pathetic and obedient that theysided with literal trash and scum trolls to drive out the workers exposing the fact that the majority of the slaves working the field were giving their labor over to a racist moron Jewish media owner.


R405227
5 days ago
aganunitsi


R405324
4 days ago
BestUserNameEvar

Boring. Bring back textile. I’m sure I can figure out a way to make this website implode.

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