Monday, November 16, 2009

My truth vs. 9/11 truth

My truth vs. 9/11 truth

Sun, 03 Feb 2008 14:02:06 -0600
R325973
2 years ago
misanthropic

::claps::


R325975
2 years ago
527794598

5ical


R325976
2 years ago
deadduck

Very nice. 5.

So was the genesis of this blog sitting around thinking that you hadn’t been called a gatekeeper in awhile?


R325978
2 years ago
silverback

not so much… i mean whenever people would say that it just didn’t really affect me. it’s so far from the truth. but it was more that once i got into the field, and out of my head, the reality of what is happening in the Muslim world – and how they perceived the conspiracy theory and it’s portrayal of them – it was kind of like a paradigm shift.


R325979
2 years ago
egalitarian77

five-by. Capitalist capitalizing.


R325983
2 years ago
ShiftShapers

five (although i thought most “911 Truthers” accepted the notion of “blowback,” and were aware of the history of colonialism, intervention, and nationalist reorganization in the Middle East, as well as the nature of such operations as the CIA’s work in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation and the dynamics of the Saudi Arabian influence. a glimpse of the complicatedness of these dynamics can be found by reading Robert Baer’s books.


R325984
2 years ago
Faxanadu

Good article as far as sociology is concerned, but as for the “hijackers” themselves, it seems fairly apparent they weren’t Muslim Fundamentalists. Lap dances, porn, prostitutes, alcohol, etc.

Why would these people give up their lives for some higher pseudo-spiritual cause that they don’t even believe in?


R325985
2 years ago
Faxanadu

(although i thought most “911 Truthers” accepted the notion of “blowback,” and were aware of the history of colonialism, intervention, and nationalist reorganization in the Middle East, as well as the nature of such operations as the CIA’s work in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation and the dynamics of the Saudi Arabian influence.

I thought so too.


R325987
2 years ago
anthony

Why would these people give up their lives for some higher pseudo-spiritual cause that they don’t even believe in?

Because their goals were political, not spiritual.

i thought most “911 Truthers” accepted the notion of “blowback,” and were aware of the history of colonialism, intervention, and nationalist reorganization in the Middle East, as well as the nature of such operations as the CIA’s work in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation and the dynamics of the Saudi Arabian influence. a glimpse of the complicatedness of these dynamics can be found by reading Robert Baer’s book

It’s hard to say what “most truthers” believe, but it’s safe to say that a central tenet of 9/11 truth centers around the idea that a couple of “A-rabs in a cave” couldn’t have pulled it off, and that al Qaeda doesn’t exist, or is a wholly owned subsidiary of US intelligence, or some faction of it.


R325988
2 years ago
supercanuk

I’ve always had problems with 9/11 conspiracy people, thank you for posting this. The “truthers” or true believers in the whole 9/11 is a fallacy thing are so dogmatic that they’ve already accepted their own “truth” which they term “skepticism”. It really bothers me because true skeptics look at all the evidence, not just the evidence that supports one’s own case. Anyway, its also interesting to note that there is a 9/11 conspiracy in the Muslim world, that Jews were responsible for 9/11… maybe both sides of the 9/11 “truth” movement should talk? lol

Great blog – 5’er for sure.


R325989
2 years ago
silverback

i thought most “911 Truthers” accepted the notion of “blowback,”

well, this is where the thing gets complicated. there are so many different tiers of belief in the 9/11 truth movement. again, something i believe is critical to getting to some kind of understanding of who and what we are fighting against. so i was not trying to paint the whole movement with this wide brush… more to say that there is a strain of it that has this tendency to negate Muslim power and that that is important to point out.

more, while the reports about Atta and his group’s final days are relatively inconclusive, and at this point, i can’t really trust any of those post-911 reports precisely because i think there was a great deal of planning and foresight about how this would all be portrayed in the media, i still see them as agents for hire… mercenaries who took on the craziest terrorist attack of all time. and i can’t imagine what kind of people would do that. highly devout people? sure, mayeb… but it’s always way more complicated than that.


R325990
2 years ago
silverback

Anyway, its also interesting to note that there is a 9/11 conspiracy in the Muslim world, that Jews were responsible for 9/11

so true! but again, that mostly comes from “moderate” Muslims who believe the Jews did it to damn Islam forever in the eyes of the West. GNN should convene a global 911 truth summit where everyone can tell their own truth and then not listen to each other and then go back home.


R325991
2 years ago
deadduck

Thanks for the honest answer to my question, but I was really just making a dumb joke.

And as you point out, it’s important to note that there are many tiers, some more credible (in my mind) than others.

GNN should convene a global 911 truth summit where everyone can tell their own truth and then not listen to each other and then go back home.

Hilarious.


R325995
2 years ago
kbz

“global 911 truth summit”

have fun with that.
5 though.


R325997
2 years ago
Suitcaseman

R325998
2 years ago
Suitcaseman

Commission Confidential

By Max Holland

In a revelation bound to cast a pall over the 9/11 Commission, Philip Shenon will report in a forthcoming book that the panel’s executive director, Philip Zelikow, engaged in “surreptitious” communications with presidential adviser Karl Rove and other Bush administration officials during the commission’s 20-month investigation into the 9/11 attacks.

Shenon, who led The New York Times’ coverage of the 9/11 panel, reveals the Zelikow-Rove connection in a new book entitled The Commission: The Uncensored History of the 9/11 Investigation, to be published next month by TWELVE books. The Commission is under an embargo until its February 5 publication, but Washington DeCoded managed to purchase a copy of the abridged audio version from a New York bookstore.

In what’s termed an “investigation of the investigation,” Shenon purports to tell the story of the commission from start to finish. The book’s critical revelations, however, revolve almost entirely around the figure of Philip Zelikow, a University of Virginia professor and director of the Miller Center of Public Affairs prior to his service as the commission’s executive director. Shenon delivers a blistering account of Zelikow’s role and leadership, and an implicit criticism of the commissioners for appointing Zelikow in the first place—and then allowing him to stay on after his myriad conflicts-of-interest were revealed under oath.

Shenon’s narrative is built from extensive interviews with staff members and several, if not all, the commissioners. He depicts Zelikow as exploiting his central position to negate or neutralize criticism of the Bush administration so that the White House would not bear, in November 2004, the political burden of failing to prevent the attacks.


R325999
2 years ago
Faxanadu

Because their goals were political, not spiritual.

You think 19 organized individuals would be willing to simultaneously obliterate themselves without any devout spiritual basis for their beliefs?

I think that’s a major stretch. I think it is far more likely these people were somewhat unaware of what awaited them.


R326001
2 years ago
silverback

Many Pakistanis believe Osama is CIA agent working for US

i mean… many? i have been across the country twice and that definitely is not the impression i got. especially considering that general musharraf is working for the CIA. although, one does not exclude the other.

but as i explained earlier, most moderate Muslims who are horrified about what has happened in the wake of 9/11, how they’re perceived in the world, take this view. that OBL is a western creation, designed to demonize Islam. and then the militants – and those who are not fighters but whom support them – say that the idea that some facet of Islam would not rise up and fight back against the occupations, looting, genocide etc. is itself a total creation, designed to make Muslims feel like they cannot fight back.

as i was asked repeatedly, wouldn’t you fight back if all this was happening to your people?

now, of course, this doesn’t mean there wasn’t a containment policy hatched to ensure that bin Laden was able to launch the global jihad. but it’s something that is purely conjectural at this point.

then there’s adam gadahn. who i highly doubt is a double agent. useful idiot, you might say. possibly. but then al-Zawahiri? pushing it there… definitely pushing it.


R326000
2 years ago
Faxanadu

So again, I have to ask the question, why would people who do not subscribe to the fundamentalist beliefs associated with radicalized muslims willingly blow themselves up en masse? That they are purely politically motivated doesn’t cut it. They trained on US bases for fuckers sake.

Post Modified: 02/03/08 16:41:24

R326002
2 years ago
Suitcaseman

Just like Lee Harvey Oswald, trained on U.S. bases.


R326003
2 years ago
silverback

i can’t really tell if this is a dialogue or monologue. but just in case:

Just like Lee Harvey Oswald, trained on U.S. bases

you can’t really compare LHO to OBL... seriously. a patsy is a patsy.


R326007
2 years ago
Number5Toad

five. if i could give it a ten, i would. i always found the term “caveman conspiracy” and the implications that went along with it abhorrently racist and ethnocentric.

why would people who do not subscribe to the fundamentalist beliefs associated with radicalized muslims willingly blow themselves up en masse?

while i’m not denying that the behavior of some of the accused hijackers seems strange and contradictory to a fundamentalist Muslim doctrine, i’ve read nothing that indicates that ALL of them partook in the hookers-and-blow filled parties of Atta’s last days. i’m more than willing to accept that Atta was some kind of government double agent and that the rest were somehow duped.


R326015
2 years ago
AnotherBetterRed

Because their goals were political, not spiritual.

Surely this would be nearly as patronising (to jihadists) as saying it was the CIA.

That they are purely politically motivated doesn’t cut it.

Many people have sacrificed their lives for political causes. MAybe atta was on the way out anyway (he doesn’t look the picture of health on any of his photos).


R326016
2 years ago
egalitarian77

That they are purely politically motivated doesn’t cut it.

And how many U.S. boys and girls joined the military in the wake of 9/11 willing to die for their country, their politics, their beliefs, etc. These things are intertwined within our psyches, not just an either or.


R326017
2 years ago
a_pretty_rainbow

I heard he was a cokehead because all that coke was coming through the airbase that he was training at, right?


R326020
2 years ago
AnotherBetterRed

_ i always found the term “caveman conspiracy” and the implications that went along with it abhorrently racist and ethnocentric_.

Yes, but it is not right to assume that everyone who doubts the official version thinks this way. It’s possible to also think that the jihadist groups could carry out such an act, and probably stuff much worse. It could be they haven’t because they’re not barbarians to the extent we are. Many of the religious leaders are learned men – look at the shelves filled with books. A massive nuclear or biological attack would kill many faithful, many animals, many innocents.


R326021
2 years ago
Number5Toad

These things are intertwined within our psyches, not just an either or.

pretty good point

I heard he was a cokehead because all that coke was coming through the airbase that he was training at, right?

huh?


R326022
2 years ago
FloydAnderson

he kind of blurted out some statement to the effect that he didn’t really think there were jihadists out there, at least none who could actually pull off any operations against the US.

Alex or his producer blurted this out to you? You got any more exact quotes of what was said? When was this interview you did with Alex? I’d love to hear it. Give me the date of the interview and I’ll search for it.

the entire theory of 9/11 as an inside job is predicated on the belief that they couldn’t.

No sir, they certainly could. The available evidence surrounding the 9/11 attacks does not point to Muslim involvement though. Who wired three WTC buildings for demolition? Muslims? WTC 7 tenants included the U.S. Secret Service, the CIA and then-Mayor Giuliani’s Office of Emergency Management, as well as the SEC files related to numerous Wall Street investigations, as well as other federal investigative files. All the files for approximately 3,000 to 4,000 SEC cases were destroyed. Some were backed up in other places, but many were not, especially those classified as confidential. Did some fundamentalist Muslims sneak in there and wire that bitch up?

But this idea that Muslims were merely a stage prop in the grand illusion of 9/11 is not only ignorant but also highly insulting to them.

It may be insulting to them, but it is not ignorant. I haven’t seen convincing evidence that Muslims planned or significantly contributed to the 9/11 attacks.

Americans have been destroying their culture and fucking with their political systems for decades… and now, when the Muslims fight back, they assume that they are so incompetent and facile that it was the Americans who had to do it for them.

Who is assuming this? Seems like you are assuming that Americans are assuming this. Got any quotes or anything about these assumptions?

We’re so self-centered. it’s always about us!

?

I suddenly understood the reason why Chomsky was so anti-conspiracy theory. Not that I agree with him, but I understand now. They make you kind of immune to the geo-political realities… to the very real anger and frustration that exists in the world. That drives people to terrorism.

But there is also a Muslim side to the equation and until the 911 “truth” movement takes that into account… that there are millions of Muslims angry enough, ready enough, able enough to execute these kinds of operations… and imputes that into the formula, they will always be walking around trying to sell a half-baked cake.

The desire and willingness of jihadis you have supposedly met with to commit murderous attacks upon Americans does not equate to Muslim complicity in the planning and executing of the 9/11 mega-ritual.

btw, I am totally pro conspiracy theory.


R326025
2 years ago
Number5Toad

Yes, but it is not right to assume that everyone who doubts the official version thinks this way.

absolutely agreed, and i don’t assume that…i’ve encountered many fine and well researched skeptics who discount the whole “Muslims couldn’t have done this” attitude completely, some of whom have already posted in this thread.

i felt, however, that this blog was specifically aimed at the “Caveman Conspiracy” types, some of whom have already posted in this thread…


R326026
2 years ago
repent11

Well said silverback. I agree


R326028
2 years ago
silverback

Give me the date of the interview and I’ll search for it

it ended up getting pushed back and then cancelled!

btw, I am totally pro conspiracy theory.

got it.


R326031
2 years ago
FloydAnderson

it ended up getting pushed back and then cancelled!

OK but when was the interview?


R326032
2 years ago
Number5Toad

he…just said it got cancelled…


R326033
2 years ago
Namaste_Rich

Go Giants.


R326036
2 years ago
FloydAnderson

he…just said it got cancelled…

What was the date of this blurt out you speak of before an interview with Alex Jones?


R326037
2 years ago
silverback

totally, eli!


R326038
2 years ago
silverback

i can’t remember, i’m thinking it was for the last anniversary of 9/11… cause they were selling the GNN vid.


R326045
2 years ago
527794598

;-)


R326047
2 years ago
527794598

Tom Petty just showed his tit.


R326049
2 years ago
silverback

i know… i forgot how contentious this thing was… should have left it.


R326051
2 years ago
527794598

Nah, but maybe you should leave it as it is rather than going round and round. It’s an original view point (on gnn) that stands up well as it is and there is no need to argue points that have been debated over and over again for the last 7 years. This isn’t a dead horse anymore. It’s been beaten so long it’s pulp ready to be processed into dog food.


R326053
2 years ago
silverback

cool, will take that as good advice.


R326054
2 years ago
FloydAnderson

R326056
2 years ago
527794598

Thanks for almost immediately proving my point. hahaha


R326059
2 years ago
silverback

just for the record, i don’t buy the fact that the towers went down on their own.


R326061
2 years ago
FloydAnderson

What do you think brought them down?


R326062
2 years ago
527794598

Pigeon shit.


R326063
2 years ago
lday

So Muslims have motivation; where are their means and opportunity?

How do they evade the normal defensive precautions?

Why didn’t they make sure their names were on the passenger manifests?

Why did Osama initially decline responsibility and declare the tactic un-Islamic?

Why isn’t there any evidence?

I, of course, am a conspiracy theorist.
So are LIHOPers, Arab hijacker believers,
and of course Hillary Clinton:
“I do believe that this is a battle,” the first lady said. “Look at the very people who are involved in this. They have popped up in other settings. The great story here for anybody willing to find it, write about it and explain it is this vast right-wing conspiracy that has been conspiring…
—Hillary Clinton on NBC’s Today, Jan 27, 1998


R326065
2 years ago
Truthcansuk

SilverGNN should convene a global 911 truth summit where everyone can tell their own truth and then not listen to each other and then go back home…

We call it the Open Forum…

I’m with Egalitarian on the motivation tip. When it comes to Islam, especially the Wahhabist version out of Saudi Arabia, the spiritual is the political, and vice-versa…

Post Modified: 02/03/08 20:44:29

R326068
2 years ago
mtnlungta

Execute an event anonymously
And ten players will clamor for credit
I©m sure the average jihadist could take you out with snare wire
But to pull 911 off with plane tickets and razorblades in handles?
Wishful thinking
It©s analogous to the drunk in the back of the bar claiming a ©his team© super bowl win
Las Vegas exists because Americans can©t do math
The 911 commission report stands because they cant do grade 9 science
And yes our well written opinions exist
Because we are willing to take the 10% of revealed facts
Our prejudiced background
And filter it thru a couple of personal experiences
Whip it into a blog of profound insight
My personal opinion
Is that the most highly educated among us via web books video and travel
Are so far behind the curve of things
It©s like my cat opining on my activities
Jihadists might be pissed
America spends a million dollars a minute on the war
To keep it that way
But to think they are any less than farmed by the process as are we
I think is to miss the point
blessings -five


R326071
2 years ago
mtnlungta

Alternative universe conversation 9/13/2001
America gets bitch slapped via 911
Americans come to their senses
Realizing the equality of all humans
And the devastation caused by their policies
In an extreme show of leadership
And in line with Christian values
America uses its resources domestically and abroad
To the good of all humanity and the restoration of the planet
New Orleans is healed poverty and starvation eliminated
Universal health care prevails
Spiritual values are embraced
Greed and control are reduced to history lessons
The release of technology in secret programs has reversed the planets decline
American values that dont entail carpet bombing and desecration of human rights
Are warmly received by the world
But no you did plan B

ahhhhhhhhhh sorry
musta dozed off a minute there

Post Modified: 02/03/08 21:17:40

R326072
2 years ago
Freeman

“btw, I am totally pro conspiracy theory.”

just take my pick fo theories and you are Pro-this or that?

c’mon Bush may have been complicit more likely just an idiot a similar response was taken after katrina

Send in the goons!

after all blackwater was in the big easy too

anybody see the super-bowel Carville/Frist commercial?
Just proves both parties are corporate friendly…

I’m beginning to like a Nader-Paul ticket for 2008…


R326076
2 years ago
FloydAnderson

just take my pick fo theories and you are Pro-this or that

Nah, I was just responding to Silverback saying that he can understand why Chomsky is anti-conspiracy theory (as in anti- consider the possibility of a conspiracy)

I like to consider the possibilities.


R326081
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

just for the record, i don’t buy the fact that the towers went down on their own.

HOLY FUCK!!!
That’s an epic statement from SB. I can’t believe it…

The point that truthers are trying to make when they say “Al Queda couldn’t have done it” is not that they are incapable of hijacking a plane and crashing it (though the skill level required to hit those particular targets does seem out of reach of those accused).

The point is that they couldn’t have organized for the war drills to have occurred that day, they couldn’t have organized a the stand down of defenses, they couldn’t have organized the visas, without someone on the inside.

I personally have seen no evidence they were even on the planes.
But I’ll leave it there. I don’t want to be called a hijacker denier.


R326082
2 years ago
mercenary

Nice job – pretty much my take on this.

Oddly enough, I’ve met plenty of moderate to stir-crazy Arabs who think that it was an inside job as well…


R326085
2 years ago
lday

But there is also a Muslim side to the equation and until the 911 “truth” movement takes that into account… that there are millions of Muslims angry enough, ready enough, able enough to execute these kinds of operations… and imputes that into the formula, they will always be walking around trying to sell a half-baked cake

Aside from motivation what is the “Muslim side of the equation”? They have no means or opportunity.
Who is being ‘half-baked’?


R326086
2 years ago
lday

???

Post Modified: 02/03/08 23:37:46

R326087
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

just for the record, i don’t buy the fact that the towers went down on their own.

Can you elaborate please?
You don’t buy the new “al Queda planted explosives” theories, do you?


R326088
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

Half-baked is believing the hijackers would be happy to go into this operation using a passport that was on the record as stolen

Or believing that the passports and luggage that were found really belonged to those accused.

Or ignoring that the “forensic proof” that the hijackers were on the plane is in fact a few corpses that they couldn’t connect to any other passenger so they assumed they belonged to the accused.
They didn’t even DNA test them, SB!

Post Modified: 02/03/08 23:43:58

R326090
2 years ago
Suitcaseman

The fallback explanation, sooner or later, it had to come out, yes there were explosives, which brought down the buildings, but they were planted by the hijackers. I wonder if there is any evidence that the hijackers were in New York or New Jersey? I know some of them were in California, some were in Minnesota, some were in Florida, better check the rooming houses in SoJo.

Post Modified: 02/03/08 23:36:05

R326097
2 years ago
FloydAnderson

Silverback why would you say, The first time I experienced this perspective was before an interview with Alex Jones.......when the interview actually got canceled?

Post Modified: 02/04/08 00:02:29

R326099
2 years ago
lday

Mohand Alshehri.
_Janitor William Rodriguez, who has worked at the World Trade Center for 20 years, believes he sees Flight 175 hijacker Mohand Alshehri in one of the towers. Rodriguez is cleaning washrooms on the Trade Center’s concourse level one weekend, when a person he later believes to have been Alshehri approaches him and asks, “[H]ow many public bathrooms are in this area?” Rodriguez says he finds this “very strange.” After 9/11, he will recognize the man from newspaper photos as having been the suspected hijacker. He will say he is “very certain, I’ll give it 90 percent” that the man he’d seen was Alshehri. He will tell the FBI of this encounter, but will never hear back from them. FBI officials later say they have never heard of Rodriguez, but they do not discount his story.
[Daily Telegraph, 6/15/2004; MSNBC, 6/15/2004; New York Daily News, 6/15/2004] According to FBI and 9/11 Commission accounts, Mohand Alshehri has only recently entered the US, on May 28, 2001 (see April 23-June 29, 2001), though other reports suggest he was in the country several months earlier (see January or July 28, 2001)_ . [US Congress, 9/26/2002; 9/11 Commission, 8/21/2004, pp. 23 http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=william_rodriguez ]

however:

Saeed Alghamdi, Mohand Alshehri, Abdul aziz Alomari and Salem Alhazmi “are not dead and had nothing to do with the heinous terror attacks in New York and Washington.” The Saudi Arabian embassy told The Orlando Sentinel.


R326100
2 years ago
527794598

“Silverback why would you say, The first time I experienced this perspective was before an interview with Alex Jones…....when the interview actually got canceled?”

You got him! Well done, Sherlock! Can’t get one past you!


R326101
2 years ago
Truthcansuk

That boy is gonna crack this wide open, 5277… Just you watch!!!


R326104
2 years ago
kbz

a demolition seems plausible. some “9/11 conspiracy theorists” believe this.

but,

what has come out concerning who prepped the demo? if this happened, someone obviously did it who knew what they were doing, correct?

where are these people?


R326106
2 years ago
FloydAnderson

A place to start is with Ace Elevator Co. in Palisades Park, NJ

The architectural drawings of the WTC North Tower have been leaked from an individual associated with the Silverstein-Weidlinger Report. They reveal that the large box columns of the core maintain their 30“x16” and 52“x22” dimensions at least up through the 66th floor. They also indicate that most of the core columns would be easily accessed from the elevator shafts in order to plant explosives. We know that the elevators were being modernized by Ace Elevator during the 9 months prior to 9/11. source

On Sept. 11, ACE Elevator of Palisades Park, N.J., had 80 elevator mechanics inside the World Trade Center. Following the Port Authority’s emergency plan, after the first jet hit the north tower, elevator mechanics from both towers reported to the fire safety desk in the south tower lobby for instructions from police or firefighters. About 60 mechanics had arrived in the south tower lobby and others were in radio contact when the second jet struck that building. “We were standing there trying to count heads when the second plane hit (the south tower),” said Peter Niederau, ACE Elevator’s supervisor of the modernization project. source

Post Modified: 02/04/08 02:25:39

R326107
2 years ago
527794598

I wish I could textile bomb this thread into oblivion.


R326108
2 years ago
FloydAnderson

R326109
2 years ago
527794598

Shogo had nothing to do with the invention of the textile bomb, and in fact never used the technology. verisimilar was the Einstein and I was essentially the Robert Oppenheimer, David Bohm, Leo Szilard, Eugene Wigner, Otto Frisch, Rudolf Peierls, Felix Bloch, Niels Bohr, Emilio Segre, James Franck, Enrico Fermi, Klaus Fuchs and Edward Teller. We are all indeed sons of bitches. I am become death, the destroyer of internets.


R326110
2 years ago
527794598

Also, that is like the worst AE article ever.


R326116
2 years ago
bacchus

But this idea that Muslims were merely a stage prop in the grand illusion of 9/11 is not only ignorant but also highly insulting to them.

The first time I ever heard an alternative history of 9-11 was when I was visiting Morocco in 2003. A (Muslim) man I was talking to was offended that I thought Arab Muslims did 9-11, felt that Arab Muslims were scapegoated for too many of the West’s problems, and that the operation was carried out by Israel to get Americans to rally against the Israeli government’s enemy (the Arabs).

Now that I’ve investigated the matter thoroughly, all I can say is “the evidence linking these Israelis to 9-11 is classified.”

Post Modified: 02/04/08 06:59:04

R326117
2 years ago
bacchus

You can’t deny that 9-11, as a terrorist plot, fails on paper. The planes should have been tailed and shot down, at a minimum. Why would jihadists attempt a plan that fails on paper?


R326118
2 years ago
bacchus

By the way, arguing over whether “Arabs/Muslims did 9-11” is as racists as arguing over whether “Jews did 9-11.” What, entire races and religions carry out terrorist attacks? It’s 100 people, tops.


R326125
2 years ago
misanthropic

The only problem with talking about this on GNN is the never ending stream of shoddy articles, videos, and pictures spammed into it.


R326128
2 years ago
aganunitsi

I don’t know about the entire 9/11 plan, but I’ve always been suspicious of the subsequent anthrax attacks. That, if anything, looked like an inside job.

As for “what does it take to create a jihadist”, poverty and ignorance seem to be key ingredients throughout history. Maybe the USA should focus on getting food, shelter, clothing and education to the poor before someone else give’s them an AK-47? Hell, we could even start in America – we’ve got plenty of poor.


R326135
2 years ago
Suitcaseman

The anthrax attacks were warnings to go along. Some people are slower than others. But to tell you the truth, I cannot blame Stephen for going neutral. It is pretty safe right now to say that there might have been some people in the government, who were negligent or possibly intentional, it is acceptable. One day you won’t be able to come on the internet and say that 911 was an inside job. There is a tremendous amount of pressure on people who run these kinds of sites to not talk about 911.

I could say to Stephen, why don’t you try traveling around New York and New Jersey to see if you can find out who might have been responsible for wiring the three WTC buildings, but what is the point, is has already been done. If you don’t like links to websites, google The Dancing Israelis.

When they start trotting out Noam Chomsky, Norman Mailer (filmed before he died) and William Manchester to reinforce the notion that JFK could not possibly have been killed as a result of a conspiracy, you can bet your sweet bippy that the pressure is on, and it cannot be denied.

But the problem with all of that is, that, if you lived through the period or you know a lot about it, the evidence clearly shows that there was a conspiracy, and I am positive that Noam Chomsky would not want to debate the issue. And contrary to popular belief, and to the efforts of an never-ending propaganda machine, the majority of Americans do not believe the government, when it spins these tales about Lee Harvey Oswald and 19 Arab hijackers.

Noam Chomsky said “Who cares?” about the JFK assassination. He said lots of people are killed. He has the same kind of attitude about the people who died at the WTC. But he wants us to be interested in his latest question and answer session about East Timor.

Let me just say this. JFK was the last president, in fact the only president, who directly and overtly threatened the power of the Intelligence community, particularly the CIA. I’ve always said, if you can’t tell me who the top three people in the CIA were before the Bay of Pigs, it is pointless to have a discussion. Because he threatened the CIA, his head was blasted out, and one reason we get to see the Zapruder film over and over, even though it took four years to get to the public, is so we can see for ourselves what happens to people, who threaten the system.


R326137
2 years ago
FloydAnderson

R326153
2 years ago
stimulator

FIVE. This has also been my experience speaking with folks from the middle east, although they are not jihadists, they also find it insulting and naive that 911 truth folks do not believe that radical Muslims do not have the tactical ability to carry this out. I agree that in order for any theory to be complete, it must include radical Islamists.


R326156
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

based on what evidence?


R326158
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

The only problem with talking about this on GNN is the never ending stream of shoddy articles, videos, and pictures spammed into it.

I find the biggest problem is the never ending stream of comments from those who don’t actually want to discuss the evidence.


R326161
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

Why would anyone be so fucking determined to blame the Arabs in the absence of evidence unless they are pro-war?


R326167
2 years ago
Namaste_Rich

Book: 911 Commission Executive Director Had Closer White House Ties Than Publicly Disclosed

from the Article:

The book says that in early 2004, Zelikow allegedly sought to add to an initial staff report wording that linked al-Qaida to Iraq. The wording would have said the terrorist network repeatedly tried to communicate with the government of Saddam Hussein, a claim of cooperation the administration had cited to justify the war in Iraq. After a staff protest, Zelikow backed down; the final report said there was no “collaborative relationship” between Saddam and al-Qaida. Zelikow has said that he simply wanted the panel to keep an open mind on the issue.


R326168
2 years ago
527794598

“Why would anyone be so fucking determined to blame the Arabs in the absence of evidence unless they are pro-war?”

OJ killed his ex wife. I hate black people.


R326170
2 years ago
silverback

Why would anyone be so fucking determined to blame the Arabs in the absence of evidence unless they are pro-war

no one is blaming the Arabs. jesus.


R326171
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

Nice, Rich.

Of course, I realized, the entire theory of 9/11 as an inside job is predicated on the belief that they couldn’t.

Come back and defend your ridiculous strawman, Stephen.


R326172
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

no one is blaming the Arabs. jesus.

The individual Arabs accused by the US. jesus.


R326173
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

At least you came back.
You don’t owe me shit but I would really appreciate it if you elaborate on what you think happened to the towers.


R326174
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

And he’s gone. LOL

So the FBI are crazy to say that there is no evidence connecting al Queda to 9/11?
Are they just deluded leftists?


R326180
2 years ago
Chickenma1

i’m more than willing to accept that Atta was some kind of government double agent and that the rest were somehow duped.

Me too, Toad. The evidence just leads us there. And Silver, your statement is interesting about how some Arabs feel, but is not addressing the facts. Saying someone in a cave couldn’t fly a plane into a building is knee-jerk, but so is the knee-jerk statement that explosives could not have been used secretly enough to pull it off.


R326193
2 years ago
supercanuk

Saying someone in a cave couldn’t fly a plane into a building is knee-jerk, but so is the knee-jerk statement that explosives could not have been used secretly enough to pull it off.

Is this still not simply conjecture?


R326194
2 years ago
tomtom

Bin Laden says he wasn’t behind attacks

September 17, 2001

DOHA, Qatar (CNN) © Islamic militant leader Osama bin Laden, the man the United States considers the prime suspect in last week©s terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, denied any role Sunday in the actions believed to have killed thousands.

In a statement issued to the Arabic satellite channel Al Jazeera, based in Qatar, bin Laden said, “The U.S. government has consistently blamed me for being behind every occasion its enemies attack it.”

“I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons,” bin Laden’s statement said.

“I have been living in the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan and following its leaders’ rules. The current leader does not allow me to exercise such operations,” bin Laden said.

Asked Sunday if he believed bin Laden’s denial, President Bush said, “No question he is the prime suspect. No question about that.”

that bin Laden feller must be an racist – he doesn’t think he did it either! Bet that really pisses the well known smart cookie, Mr Khalid Kelly, right off. I wonder if the well known smart cookie, Mr Khalid Kelly, will jihad Bin Laden’s ass on account of it

Post Modified: 02/04/08 16:13:47

R326195
2 years ago
aganunitsi

I’ve worked in property management for over a decade now. I have personal experience managing downtown highrises. One of my closest friends was trained in building maintenance in New York, knew members of the WTC staff, and lost a brother on 9/11. I can’t count the number of times I watched him cry that morning, listening to his brother’s final message relayed over his sister-in-law’s answering machine. In the end, they did recover something to bury – one foot, still in boot.

Saying that explosives could not have been used secretly enough to pull off 9/11 is NOT a knee-jerk reaction on my part. There were over 30 maintenance staff at WTC, and this isn’t counting janitors. These staff, aka “Building Engineers” in the industry, know their building like the back of their hand. For so many people not to notice what would have amounted to hundreds of planted charges throughout their building seems ludicrous, from my point of view.

Yes, I know there’s always the possibility that it could be pulled off, but this seems incredibly far fetched. The CIA, or whoever would have planted the charges, had to work under the assumption that a charge or two would have been spotted and reported, thus foiling the entire operation. Unless you think they are both brilliant and stupid all at the same time? I have yet to hear any reasonable explanation for a CIA contingency plan on discovery – how the hell would they have explained hundreds of explosives set throughout the building?

[PS: Personally, I tend to see the CIA as more stupid than brilliant. See “Bay of Pigs Invasion”.]

Post Modified: 02/04/08 16:30:56

R326199
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

Dr Steven Jones has found evidence of a kind of thermite coating, like a paint.
This angle is being investigated as we speak. Rest assured I’ll post findings when they come.

The areas of the building where the collapses initiated correspond with the areas that received the special fireproofing.

clicky

Post Modified: 02/04/08 16:27:00

R326201
2 years ago
tomtom

radical Muslims do not have the tactical ability to carry this out.

radical Muslims do not have the tactical ability to prevent the US Air Force from intercepting these Aircraft. Am I a racist for saying that? Only a very select number of people could arrange that and on the day these attack went down none of them were to be found living in a cave in Afghanistan chanting “Allah al Akbhar”

Between September 2000 and June 2001 the US military launched fighter aircraft on 67 occasions to chase suspicious aircraft

Source: The Right Honourable Mr Michael Meacher, Member of British Parliament

That was a 100% success rate yet on Sept 11 2001 they couldn’t even manage a 25% success rate. Apparently, pointing that out makes one a racist these days, according to those that have been in the company of Khalid Kelly. I guess such close proximity to Smart Cookiness causes one to see these things much more clearly than mere ordinary cookies like the rest of us.

Post Modified: 02/04/08 16:41:25

R326203
2 years ago
silverback

but so is the knee-jerk statement that explosives could not have been used secretly enough to pull it off.

i never said that.

radical Muslims do not have the tactical ability to prevent the US Air Force from intercepting these Aircraft. Am I a racist for saying that?

and how did racism ever come into this discussion? as i wrote clearly in my post, i believe there were elements working on both sides.


R326205
2 years ago
silverback

And he’s gone. LOL

um, i have other shit to deal with. why don’t you relax and not make this into a dualistic argument. read my post, i agree with aspects of the “truth” movement. to think that al qaeda didn’t have resources is ridiculous. you obviously don’t know much about the wahabist movement, it’s support in Saudi Arabia and… the corresponding will in certain facets of the US to see this happen. btw, i am pretty sure that some form of explosives were used. Tower 7 has always been the obvious Achilles heal.


R326208
2 years ago
silverback

That was a 100% success rate yet on Sept 11 2001 they couldn’t even manage a 25% success rate. Apparently, pointing that out makes one a racist these days

you clearly don’t read. we went over this, and the point was made that it had to have had co-operation from both sides. we studied and reported on that very fact back in ’03 when we pushed the issue in a book published by a major mainstream imprint. where were you? posting snarky comments on little websites like GNN?

this is why you all end up sounding like crazed fanatics screaming in a sealed room. you’re so full of contempt and this mix of entitlement and martyrishness that nobody listens to you. i guess that’s ok with you, but i’d actually like to create some level of consensus, a departure point for a rational discussion with non-believers to get to the bottom of this. so that’s what i am going to continue to do. you do what you want.


R326214
2 years ago
Truthcansuk

Silver, did you read The Looming Tower? Wondering what you thought of it…


R326218
2 years ago
variable

but i’d actually like to create some level of consensus, a departure point for a rational discussion with non-believers to get to the bottom of this. so that’s what i am going to continue to do. you do what you want.

well said…

er, anyone spoken to zacarias moussaoui lately?

Post Modified: 02/04/08 17:22:11

R326221
2 years ago
tomtom

September 8, 2001 High Level Air Force Discussions Call for Dismantling NORAD©s Alert Sites

The future of ‘continental air sovereignty’ over America is in doubt. Discussions at the Air Force’s highest levels call for the dismantling of NORAD’s seven ‘alert’ sites around the US and its command and control structure. [Filson, 2004, pp. 149] Earlier in the summer of 2001, ‘a reduction in air defenses had been gaining currency in recent months among task forces assigned by [Defense Secretary] Rumsfeld to put together recommendations for a reassessment of the military.’(see Summer 2001)

Post Modified: 02/04/08 17:39:21

R326222
2 years ago
tomtom

“September 8, 2001:“http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=us_department_of_the_air_force High Level Air Force Discussions Call for Dismantling NORAD©s Alert Sites

The future of ©continental air sovereignty© over America is in doubt. Discussions at the Air Force©s highest levels call for the dismantling of NORAD©s seven ©alert© sites around the US and its command and control structure. [Filson, 2004, pp. 149] Earlier in the summer of 2001, ©a reduction in air defenses had been gaining currency in recent months among task forces assigned by [Defense Secretary] Rumsfeld to put together recommendations for a reassessment of the military.©(see Summer 2001)


R326223
2 years ago
silverback

The Looming Tower

i didn’t TCS, should i? was it a good read?


R326224
2 years ago
Namaste_Rich

R326229
2 years ago
Truthcansuk

Yeah, it really was a good read… totally deserved the Pulitzer.


R326232
2 years ago
Number5Toad

for the record i probably introduced racism into the argument by stating my opinion that the prominent and derisive use of terms like “caveman conspiracies” was incredibly ethnocentric and racist.

and for the record, i’m not going to apologize for, or back down from that opinion.


R326233
2 years ago
mkane

My response to silverback – and continuation of this thread – is here


R326234
2 years ago
527794598

“and continuation of this thread”

hahahaha


R326235
2 years ago
tomtom

Stephen Marshall: and how did racism ever come into this discussion?

eh it was when you brought up the charge of ‘ethnocentrism’ and also said “ assume that they [Muslims] are so incompetent and facile that it was the Americans who had to do it for them.” in direct response to some comments of mine. Clearly you implied racism – you can deny it if you wish

you clearly don’t read. we went over this, and the point was made that it had to have had co-operation from both sides.

and you appear to be incapable of understand anything I’ve ever said on the subject. Never once have I said muslims were not involved. I clearly linked to an article that quoted BIN LADEN as saying he was not involved. I have no problem believing that someone found a bunch of Muslim patsies to get involved in the whole caper.

From what I can gather you appear to use the term ‘Jihadists’ to apply to any and all muslims that take up arms against the western forces. I on the otherhand use the term ‘Jihadists’ to apply only to so-called ‘Foreign Jihadists’ (i.e. the people generally referred to as ‘al quaida’ by the media) in places like Afghanistan and Pakistan. Any Afghanis and Pakistanis taking up arms against Foreign invaders of their countries such as the Brits and the Yanks, or against puppet regimes installed or supported by Brits and Yanks, I personally would refer to as ‘Legimate resistors to foreign imperialists’ if I wanted to be totally precise about it – you however don’t appear to make that distinction, at least not in the thread that started all this of – http://www.gnn.tv/threads/29422/Liberals_and_the_jihad Indeed the snarkmeter went off when I mentioned:

jihadists are ramping up the pressure in Pakistan now because Afghanistan is a little too hot for them to operate in at the moment.

you replied do you just make this stuff up? Afghanistan is a total disaster right now.

and then linked to an article that makes NO MENTION of foreign Jihadists at all, nada – zilch. So when I had earlier asked you do pissed off border area tribes people automatically become ‘jihadists’ in your paradigm? it appears I was correct.

I distinguish between the Taliban and ‘Foreign Jihadists’ – You appear not to.

The Taliban to me seem to be Jihadists in an internal afghani context, but not in an international context, hence if they are making it hard for the foreign invading Brit and US forces, well that’s just tough shit for the brits and the yanks, the taliban probably wouldn’t be trying to kill them if they hadn’t invaded their country in the first place.

Nothing I’ve read indicates it’s the ‘Foreign Jihadists’ doing the legimate resisting against the Brits and Yanks in Afghanistan. Do you have evidence that the legimate resistance to the Brits and the Yanks in afghanistan is being lead by ‘Foreign Jihadists’? If so I’d like to see it. Or are YOU just making shit up?

Don’t gimme snark and you won’t get it in return, Stephen

I’ve no doubt you’ve had some riveting experiences with the brain-trust lead by Khalid Kelly – but as far as I know that was in Pakistan and NOT Afghanistan?

Post Modified: 02/04/08 18:24:14

R326244
2 years ago
silverback

I on the otherhand use the term ‘Jihadists’ to apply only to so-called ‘Foreign Jihadists’ (i.e. the people generally referred to as ‘al quaida’ by the media) in places like Afghanistan and Pakistan. Any Afghanis and Pakistanis taking up arms against Foreign invaders of their countries such as the Brits and the Yanks, or against puppet regimes installed or supported by Brits and Yanks, I personally would refer to as ‘Legimate resistors to foreign imperialists

ok, if you like typing that much, you do that. but from what i have experienced, the vast majority of these rebels are Muslims, and they find strength for their fight in the Koran. and the Koran sanctions resistance against foreign invasion… and this typically falls under the banner of jihad, or “struggle,” if you want to be precise. that is why they call themselves jihadists. very very few, in fact i doubt if any Muslim resistance members would not use the Koranic terminology to describe, and indeed, bless their actions. and if you realllllly want to be precise, for most Muslims “Taliban” has been appropriated by the Afghani fundamentalists. Talib means student or one who seeks… and I actually heard a few Muslims in the NWFP correct Khalid when he spoke of the Taliban, or talked about joining them.

frankly, if any of them actually read this ridiculous exchange between two kufar about their goals and labels, they would laugh their heads off.

as for the Afghan article. you made a statement implying that the situation in Afghanistan was “too hot” for the fighters. nothing could be further from the truth, you made a careless, unsupported remark and now we’re into semantic-land. the situation there is worse now for the so-called coalition than ever – as the article i linked to pointed out – and as far as i know, people are streaming across the border to join the fight. which is what i was in Pakistan to cover in the first place.

i don’t know what experience, if any, you have had in these regions. but it doesn’t sound like much.

I have no problem believing that someone found a bunch of Muslim patsies to get involved in the whole caper.

finally… thank you for making my point. this is the kind of statement the Muslims I was citing in my original piece find offensive. i don’t know if they feel it’s racist or not. but they definitely would have words with you about it, if not more. and that would be a fun thing to watch. you and some very strong hearted, wildly articulate East London Islamists having this discussion. i could probably arrange it but most of them are in prison now.

good night and good luck.


R326248
2 years ago
mkane

I posted my response to silverback – a pseudo-continuation of this thread – here


R326252
2 years ago
wongshing

get to the bottom of this.
oh, I think we’ve reached the bottom, probably not in a good way.

I don’t have any links to life-changing information that will prove this-or-that party guilty of conspiring to fool us all, but I do know that it’s pretty well documented for anyone to see that the institution of government is mostly built upon concentrated control of information coupled with strict control of natural resources, and debating the truthfulness of any particular calamity is kind of useless in a system where even those who would attempt to tell truth must shroud it in hyperbole to find any real audience.

A think a rational starting point for a level of consensus such as this would be built upon the idea that despite the specifics of certain lies, which are numerous, the basis of the one big lie — the one that keeps up believing we need some politician to change life for us, the one that tells us we can just recycle and vote and shut off the lights when we leave the room and buy organic and everything will be okay, the one that takes all of our time, energy and creativity in return for a few dollars and a pile of useless shit — this remains to be our most formidable opponent.

If nothing else, to the credit of the more confrontational 9/11 truthers, I think that their shock-and-awe tactics have motivated many to seek out their own truth, even if it ended up partially discrediting the original “conspiracy theory,” that people still distrustful of such dissent may never have seen. Its not their fault that people are so used to being lied to that there is actually a well-defined market for alternate webs of lies, and truth scares many people away unless its packaged and reformatted… Shit, I used to think Alex Jones was the fucking man, not that long ago come to think of it. Not that I despise the guy, but I have since come upon various other sources of information that make his perspective seem somewhat limited, to put it nicely. But as long as I didn’t follow him like a messiah and continued the search for other sources of info, as he repeatedly suggests, I can look back at the times when I learned from him as just that, a process of gradual learning and development. I can look at it positively in hindsight, instead of regretfully, when I see it as a process that was facilitated by his words because, although shrouded in shades of counter-spin, they held a greater level of truth in them than what I was accustomed to at the time.

and I can also interact with those whose viewpoints I may see as less advanced or progressive, without lapsing into a lecture or being insulting, if I accept the fact that not everyone is taking the same path at the same time to enlightenment, and it is only a hindrance to their eventual progress if I act piously towards them, putting them in a position where they will most likely hold onto their patently ridiculous assumptions as a last-ditch effort at retaining the last ounce of pride I have left unscathed by my pointed assertions, accusations, allegations and obscure references.

that being said, I have also recently realized that being too obnoxious and/or condescending with our version of the truth is a habit befitting the well-informed yet deeply insecure individual, as it allows for a good bit of the always gratifying ego-stretching. it seems most people, if given the chance, will lapse into condescension at some time or another, we all do really. I try and keep that in mind, and have found it a useful tool for actually talking to people rather than at them. So far, its worked wonders for getting my point across.

Now I’m left to wonder, what the fuck was my point, anyways?

also, if an armchair philosopher rambles on about a whole lot of metaphysical bullshit in the woods and no one hears it, does it make a sound?


R326255
2 years ago
wongshing

...

Post Modified: 02/04/08 19:50:54

R326256
2 years ago
misanthropic

I find the biggest problem is the never ending stream of comments from those who don’t actually want to discuss the evidence.

I just ignore you.


R326257
2 years ago
silverback

double (but wonderfully put) post. i am so sorry this forum thing doesn’t give you a link to the second page in the index. the new site will.


R326266
2 years ago
tomtom

absolutely no experience in Pakistan but unlike 99% of people commenting on this here I have met and discussed with members of al- Majharoun over a period of 3 saturday afternoons outside Brixton tube station in the late 1990’s. Quite frankly I found them to be some of the dumbest motherfuckers on the planet. The fact that Khalid Kelly is a member suprises me not one bit. The fact the Kelly is annoyed that people consider people like him and his organisation (if the 3 I met were anything to go by) incapable of mounting the 9-11 attack all on their little ownio just confirms for me the absolute stupidity of the man. When I first heard of Kelly about a year ago, possibly more than a year ago I didn’t exactly note the date and time in my diary, my first thought was that he must be a total retard. Nothing I’ve heard or read since has changed that initial opinion.

thank you for making my point. this is the kind of statement the Muslims I was citing in my original piece find offensive.

I personally couldn’t give a flying F*&k if they are offended or not. In another related thread the Big A said many of them come from educated, middle class backgrounds as if that somehow meant they were supercompentent empire bringer-downers. The ridiculous farce at Glasgow airport last year put the lie to the idea that middle class edumacated doctors and the like automatically make good empire bringer-downers.

i could probably arrange it but most of them are in prison now.

gee I thought these were super-competent international terrawrists. Them wanting to have strong words with me doesn’t by any means make them in any way competent.

Had you been outside Brixton tube on saturday afternoons in the late 90s you could have had at least 3 oppurtunites to witness that which you expressed a desire to see. Unfortunately you were probably out of yer tits in Mexico listening to god voices at the time so even had you been able to make it you probably wouldn’t have comprehended much of what was being said at the time. My dad wasn’t wealthy enough to buy me some expensive video equipment to video it for ya. Had I known of your existance and had you cadged a few quid off yer old fella you could have sent me a cheque with a note attached asking me to purchase some vid equipment in order to video the exchange for your edification. But to be honest I probably would have blown it on MDMA, coke and bottles of expensive whiskey, so maybe it’s just as well you didn’t bother to do that

Post Modified: 02/05/08 04:26:08

R326268
2 years ago
misanthropic

You sound suspiciously like a bitter banned troll.


R326269
2 years ago
tomtom

you made a statement implying that the situation in Afghanistan was ©too hot© for the fighters. nothing could be further from the truth, you made a careless, unsupported remark and now we©re into semantic-land.

well it appears to be too hot for the likes of the super smart cookie Khalid Kelly otherwise he’d have been in Afghanistan fighting the crusader forces, and not in Pakistan, dontcha think


R326271
2 years ago
Namaste_Rich

if an armchair philosopher rambles on about a whole lot of metaphysical bullshit in the woods and no one hears it, does it make a sound?

I often wonder if the trees ask the same question.


R326275
2 years ago
silverback

dontcha think

you’re going in circles. first it was jihadis fleeing from Afghanistan, now it’s foreign nationals trying to get in. um, and yeah, i guess the Pakistanis have got the borders pretty well sealed. we got their one day after the state of emergency had been lifted and then, after the attack on the foreign minister, we couldn’t get into Peshawar.

but anyways, i never said KK was super smart. in fact i made no personal observations about him on this site. saving that for the film.


R326278
2 years ago
wongshing

shit, thanks SB. luckily it only took me a couple minutes to realize what I was doing.

I often wonder if the trees ask the same question.

I always assumed they were laughing at me… Now I’m not so sure. Maybe they just wanted a hug… damned passive aggressive trees can be so hard to read sometimes. It looks like they’re patiently waiting for something, but I can’t tell what… Is it something I said?


R326288
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

why don’t you relax and not make this into a dualistic argument.

Why don’t you relax your efforts to paint us as half-baked cake-mongers.

read my post, i agree with aspects of the “truth” movement.

Read our posts. We’re trying to find out exactly what you beleive but all you seem to want to do is hide behind semantics.
Maybe thats untrue, but it certainly comes across that way.
You ignore us while your friends give us crap for discussing a topic you brought up.

to think that al qaeda didn’t have resources is ridiculous.

Strawman. The point is they don’t have the resources to pull it off on their own.

you obviously don’t know much about the wahabist movement, it’s support in Saudi Arabia and… the corresponding will in certain facets of the US to see this happen.

I actually have read a lot more about those subjects than you give me credit for, but that doesn’t matter.
There is still no evidence that the accused hijackers did the deed.

btw, i am pretty sure that some form of explosives were used. Tower 7 has always been the obvious Achilles heal.

If Americans were involved in the attacks to that degree then why have you closed your mind to the possibility that no al Queda were involved?
Why is it out of the question that the accused were patsies considering they were being closely tracked, lived with a US agent and couldn’t fly for shit?


R326289
2 years ago
anthony

btw, i am pretty sure that some form of explosives were used.

Really!? Wow.


R326304
2 years ago
misanthropic

Yeah, no shit. I missed that one. Can you be a little more accurate?


R326310
2 years ago
GWHunta

It’s 2008 and no “official” explanation as of yet as to what brought Bldg. Seven down?

C’mon.


R326316
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

R326317
2 years ago
tomtom

you’re going in circles.

that would be your way of admitting that, despite your excoriation of me for suggesting otherwise, you have absolutely no evidence that foreign Jihadists are the ones making things a little uncomfortable for the invading Yanks and the Brits in Afghanistan then, Mr Marshall?

but anyways, i never said KK was super smart. in fact i made no personal observations about him on this site. saving that for the film.

well you’ve been name-dropping Khalid Kelly while at the same time mentioning how pissed off and offended these supersmart Mulim terrawrists are. It’s what got me questioning what you were saying in the first place – well that, and your lack of knokwledge about the Rote Armee Faktion.

Anyone that might use Khalid Kelly as a means of bolstering their arguement that the Muslim terrorists are super smart as well as super sensitive to the notion that they weren’t the true masterminds behind 9-11, is on seriously thin Ice.

Anyway if it makes you happier I’ll consider copying the behaviour of the coterie of fawning sychophants that seem to congregate in every thread we’ve mentioned Mr kelly in so far. That way there’ll be no dissenting voices just the echo of your own words rebounding off the up-turned faces of eager yes men clambering over each other to agree with you and to do down those that might not agree with the notion that your opinions carry the weight of law around here.

Post Modified: 02/06/08 19:15:46

R326332
2 years ago
remarcus

GNN should convene a global 911 truth summit where everyone can tell their own truth and then not listen to each other and then go back home

heh.. armchair rebels with an obsession. will this be televised? and how do i get tickets?


R326341
2 years ago
Truthcansuk

Anyway if it makes you happier I’ll consider copying the behaviour of the coterie of fawning sychophants that seem to congregate in every thread we’ve mentioned Mr kelly in so far.

We have jackets now! And a sekrit handshake!!!


R326379
2 years ago
Number5Toad

well you’ve been name-dropping Khalid Kelly while at the same time mentioning how pissed off and offended these supersmart Mulim terrawrists are. It’s what got me questioning what you were saying in the first place

this is a pretty hilarious accusation, considering the source


R326398
2 years ago
mkane

there is one final thing I want to say to this – and I will do so here and at my blog. The idea that “Muslims couldn’t have done this” (meaning pulled off 9/11) has nothing to do with the intelligence of Muslims. You could replace Muslims with “The Russian Government” and it would still be a true statement.

The degree to which the 9/11 attacks were successful spanning an hour before the Pentagon was hit – when you take all of the information we have into consideration – there is no explanation that holds water that bars inside complicity.

Granted there are those who believe Muslims are stupid, and those people are racist and pretty stupid themselves.

The issue is not the intelligence of Muslims. The issue is the magnitude of the alleged “failure” on the morning of 9/11 when we know the military was aware and alerted of hijackers using planes as weapons that week and were running drills for exactly that scenario.

What I see GNN’s editors and founders clearly doing is backing away as far as they can from their original skeptical position regarding what happened on 9/11 and – in my estimation – allowing themselves to be accepted by an allegedly progressive lefty media such as Alternet, Counter Punch, Normon Solomon, Bill Weinberg (a man I respect but heavily disagree with) among others.

It is very disappointing; especially since they were an early leader on the left when dealing with this topic.

From Anthony Lappe, it is not that surprising to me. I do not respect many of his opinions as I feel he does not truly believe them himself at times. It would seem to me he is more interested in GNN’s image as opposed to what the truth is; or what he truly believes for that matter. It almost seems like an internal battle between the guy who used to work for the NY Times and MTV and the guy who left those organizations due to some sort of moral dilemma he couldn’t work out. A battle between the guy who helped to make “AFTERMATH” and the guy who now basically says the government had nothing to do with 9/11. A battle between the guy who posts Liam Scheff’s brilliantly researched work on HIV and AIDS and the guy who privately believes Liam is wrong. (so then why publish it?)

With Stephen I respect him and his opinions much more. He is a free – and rather brilliant – thinker. However in “My Truth vs. 9/11 truth” I seemed to me like he was trying to talk himself into believing the anointed lefty (Chomsky, Solomon, et al.) view of 9/11 while not fully taking on that position. Of course I could be wrong, this is just my own take here.

But so it is.

peace eternal
m>k<


R326403
2 years ago
silverback

Mike, in response to your bit about me: my point here was simply to relate my experiences in the Muslim world as someone who does share a belief in aspects of the 9/11 truth platform. as i wrote in some comment over the past few days, i have spent a great deal of time thinking about the issue and the phenomenon that divides skeptics from truthers so drastically. because our work has found its way into the mainstream, we have won supporters and fans in the major lefty media. and over the past few months, after the release of my book, i got to know a few major writers for large MSM magazines . these are good people, highly driven by a quest for non-violent justice, environmental sanity, economic reform etc.

but bring up 911 and they turn rabid. it’s fascinating. to even raise the issue sparks an instinctual knee-jerk reaction. they won’t even entertain it. now i know that a lot of this has to do with the way that a) 911 truthers act and b) they are portrayed in the media. most mainstream journalists just can’t afford to be associated with that bunch. seriously, they will be branded conspiracists and could lose their credibility and thus their livelihood (more on that in a sec).

but it also has to do with a psychological state called belief threshold. if the reality you are describing implies acts or conditions that extend beyond the worldview of the listener, they will negate it. and i have seen highly rational people, very intelligent thinkers, negate the potential of any inside action on 911 without the slightest effort to actually look into the anomalies. it’s really interesting to watch, from an anthropological point of view. it’s totally irrational. but since i am not hugely invested in the “truth,” what i have learned is that if i treat it all as a childlike fascination in narrative, bringing them into the story from a position of looking at benefit, the White Paper (another Pearl Harbor) references, etc etc. it all changes. it’s all about presentation. how you tell the story. suspension of disbelief.

now, the most interesting of all these encounters was with a long-time editor at a major, establishment left-wing magazine. i am not going to name it because the last thing i want is this to actually get back to them and then have to deal with the disclosure. anyways, we had lunch a few months ago and were discussing plot scenarios for a new script i am writing and we somehow got onto 911. he knows that there is a lot of banter on GNN about it and asked me, off the record, what i thought. i took my time and told him a story… i stayed away from the “facts” of it and just asked him to listen as if he wasn’t from america, hadn’t read the news… and didn’t have any preconceived conclusions about it all.

by the end of it, he was willing to admit that, seen in that light, it made no sense to wholly rule out insider collusion. and it doesn’t. because i really have never had a horse in this race and when i listen to the story, i know it makes absolutely no sense to ignore all the factors that point so clearly to benefit and collusion by those who were seeking a new hundred years war. forget the widescale nature of the plot that would have had to be hatched, just focus on the intent and benefit and the nature of the people who would have to be involved.

after we were done, he told me he could never speak that way, admit to that kind of doubt where he worked. that there was this thick air of extreme judgment against anyone who even mouthed it. it was really intense because what he was talking about was a form of thought control. a self-regulating form of ideological policing at an institution that had made its masthead on the pursuit of truth and relentless questioning of power.

one way i like to come at this story is to take the psych warfare angle. most people don’t know much about it psy ops. but the cornerstone of it is to create events of such magnitude that people will be traumatized into a form of complacency and inaction. and beyond the act itself, it is key to employ a propagandists tricks, so that it is effectively named, or branded, so that it sticks in the mass consciousness. call it branding. and this takes us to the branding of 911. beautifully done. 911 was clearly chosen for psych warfare reasons. september 22, october 3… none of these would have the same lasting impact. so ok, al qaeda – taking the official version at its word for a moment – get the concept of branding events in such a way that they are tatooed on the mass consciousness. but then add that to the coincidence of the training ops on 911 and the attacks. it’s one thing for al qaeda to pick this perfect day for its numerical significance but quite another for there to be coincidentally these training ops on that same day that impacted response times in a way that was unprecendented. i mean, could be… i don’t know for sure. but hugely kismetic and lucky for them.

and then i just take it further. but what did they really gain? what did bin laden get? he lost his footing in Afghanistan. was chased into the mountains of Chitral, Pakistan’s dictatorship was bolstered etc etc. ok. doesn’t look so smart. but then look what the dark horses in America got. starting with the Patriot Act and moving to the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. i know you know… but i am just showing you how i come at it.

i don’t claim to know any truth. and that is why i don’t want to sit here on these forums mouthing off about unknowns. i am just far too busy. but trust me, i get it. and am doing my part, at least, to get people who have shut down their reasoning faculties to open their minds.

now as far as this blog is concerned. i was just relating my experience. that’s all. and my experience in these lands and with these people has caused me to equally question the other side of the story. it has nothing to do with Muslims being stupid. god, that was not the point. it was more to do with an affliction that Americans have of believing its all about them. and in this way, just as the skeptics rationalize all data to fit their worldview because they cannot fathom the reality of insider action – because what would that mean for them, what would they do if they actually believed it? it would mean either revolution or cowardice – so too do the truthers fit everything to their worldview. ok? that’s all i am saying. there is a very widescale network of highly motivated, skilled, wealthy people who want to take this motherfucker down. and they definitely had a part to play in this. i believe there was collusion on our end to ensure that it happened and it happened so dramatically that it would thrust us into the reality that we all now inhabit.

to quote my good friend Anthony, just my two centivos.


R326414
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

i don’t claim to know any truth. and that is why i don’t want to sit here on these forums mouthing off about unknowns. i am just far too busy. but trust me, i get it. and am doing my part, at least, to get people who have shut down their reasoning faculties to open their minds.

Mouthing off about unknowns? We actually mouth off about knowns.
Do you see how that part of the paragraph spoils the peacemaker image you want for yourself?

Those questioning 9/11 have been mocked by many of the prominent members (EMS, Snark, even those involved with running the site like Shogo and Anthony).
I recognize that you have abstained, and you have my thanks.

But if you’re really serious about this you should consider staying away from language that belittles our efforts, platform or sanity.

so too do the truthers fit everything to their worldview.

What does that mean though? What specifically are you talking about?

We seem to be back to the shaky premise of your blog:

Truthers don’t want to believe the accused hijackers are guilty because…

That’s a possibility I suppose.
Another possibility is that examination of the evidence leads one to conclude the hijackers were patsies and may not have had anything to do with 9/11 at all.
So I ask you;

What evidence have you seen that there were even hijackers on the planes?

Post Modified: 02/05/08 17:37:53

R326417
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

we’re on the edge of our seats here, dude…

Who blew the towers? Americans or al Queda?


R326419
2 years ago
527794598

Fiver for #326403


R326420
2 years ago
silverback

Do you see how that part of the paragraph spoils the peacemaker image you want for yourself?

dude can you just relax? they are unknowns for me, i can’t prove them. if you feel confident about them, then good. go for it. i am writing about my experience and thoughts and process. jesus.


R326422
2 years ago
Number5Toad

if i could offer an example…

probably the instance of truthers fitting the facts to their worldview that bothers me the most, and is arguably repeated most often, are the claims about how the towers fell. you’ll hear over and over again that the towers could not have come down the way they did – symmetrical collapse into their footprint at, depending on who’s talking, near free fall, free fall, or faster than free fall speed – without some use of explosives to sever the core columns.

yet, the collapses were not symmetrical, as shown by the leaning of the south tower prior to collapse. they did not fall into their footprints, as evidenced by damage done to buildings several hundred feet from the towers. and they did not fall at free fall speed, because a piece of the core is visibly standing for nearly a minute after the commonly accepted collapse time has already finished. finally, if the core needed to be severed for such a collapse, why is it the last thing standing?


R326423
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

I am relaxed though.
I have a point, dude. Truthers will shut down if you say stuff like that.

now about those towers…


R326424
2 years ago
Namaste_Rich

Stephen, can you give us an idea of when a trailer for HolyWars will be ready? :)


R326426
2 years ago
silverback

thanks N_R. no idea. i have over 500 hours of footage. it has been narrowed down to 2 main characters, one of which is KKelly and the other, some of you have met on this forum, the missionary Aaron Taylor. we are now looking for an editor in LA or NYC and once we have them i expect the edit will take around 3-5 months. so summer? for those of you in Canada, Naked Eye Magazine is running an exclusive diary type article with photos of my trip to Pakistan with Kelly this past December. it’s called Looking for Osama [On the run with one of Britain’s most controversial jihadists] and should be out late March.


R326427
2 years ago
GND

i am not hugely invested in the “truth,”

heh


R326428
2 years ago
Number5Toad

stephen, with all due respect brother, you must, must have known the kind of discussion you were starting / inviting with this blog. probably best to just say who you figure bombed the towers then bow out gracefully at this point ;)

(can’t wait for HolyWars!)


R326431
2 years ago
GND

I miss forum wars :’(


R326432
2 years ago
Number5Toad

shut up

you’re stupid and gay

you…fag


R326433
2 years ago
Number5Toad

(look i’m trying ok)


R326435
2 years ago
GND

Nobody puts Baby in a corner!


R326437
2 years ago
silverback

ok N5T, you got my back, huh? ;-)

taking into account what you wrote, and which i totally agree with from the standpoint of questioning the various theories put forth, i come at it from a purely instinctual place. it’s from the narrative perspective. frankly, i have read tons of data from both sides (my grandather is a 90+ engineer who built skyscrapers etc all his life and led a research group who studied the Towers collapse from the perspective of engineers who want to prevent design flaws, producing pages and pages of data about how they would have collapsed from the poorly designed trusses etc.) and i don’t find either side conclusive. it was a crazy event, unprecedented. so what can we base our conclusions on?

for me it’s this: first of all, gut instinct. watching the Towers go down that day… at half an hour apart from each other, my first thought was how much they looked like a controlled demolition. i am not expert, obviously, but that was my impression. when i heard that WTC 7 went down on its own later that afternoon, i didn’t actually think about it. but in the months following the attacks it just became one of those things i believed intuitively, without doing a lot of reading about it. it just seemed to make sense. since then i have done a lot of reading and so now it more or less rests with this…

i believe that the ultimate goal of the attack was to drop the Towers. it was crucial for the 9/11 terror narrative and valuable from either side – either the Islamic “terrorists” or the US “insiders.” and there is no way a bunch of Islamic operatives would be able to get in and do the work that it would take. so if they were rigged, it would have had to be done by Americans. or American agents working on someone else’s behalf. now, again, i don’t really know which is true. maybe they weren’t at all. maybe it all just happened from the stress on the buildings. i don’t really give too much credence to the Silverstein threads… but one thing i have often thought about is… there was insurance for terrorist attacks , right? so the idea that they could be attacked was there. and i mean… if you thought the WTC could be hit by some major attack that would destroy at least a major portion of it, potentially limiting your ability to scale the buildings and rig them for controlled demolition, wouldn’t you maybe think about creating the potential for a demolition if that ever happened? i don’t know, but if i owned those things and was actively thinking that it could happen, especially after ’93, that would be a pretty logical precaution.

but then, what do i know? so there. i am not sitting here, writing, feeling any sense of decisiveness, that i KNOW the Towers were rigged with explosives. but after all the reading and watching i’ve done over the past 6 years, and with the way my mind works, i have a really strong feeling they did. it’s just my hunch.

now i have a shitload of work to do! so will check for responses but don’t get buggy if i am not here to respond to everything.


R326442
2 years ago
tomtom

Toad: this is a pretty hilarious accusation, considering the source

you mean coming from someone that’s actually met people from al Mujharoun, unlike someone like, say, yourself, you hasn’t?

the bit you quoted contains no accusations, toad. Stephen DID mention KK a number of times and definately DID say that muslims are pissed off and some of them are smart.

No accusations in that quote, toad. But I appreciate your interjection, if only for it’s comic value.

2 summers ago I spent over an hour talking to a young seemingly devout Egyptian muslim. We of course broached to subject of Jihad. He didn’t voice support one way or the other, he kept his comments deliberately vague, but one thing he kept repeating was that we in the west, and US citizens in particular, deserve whatever Jihadists dish out because we have allowed our leaders to install puppet-gov’ts in Muslim countries and ignored the plight of Muslims in general. I did my best to point out to him that despite appearances US citizens, along with most of the western world, really have very little influence on the actions of their leaders. I tried to explain that due to the influence of some very wealthy and very powerful corporations and individuals, their political leaders are as corrupted and corruptable as the leaders in Muslim countries.

It gets ignored by the populace because in general humans are very easily distracted once basic needs such as food and shelter are met. Add in mortgages and minimum wage jobs and is it any wonder many prefer to just flip channels until they find a Football game

I also asked him to consider that if the situation were the other way around is it likely that the populations of predominately Muslim countries would act differently.

He listened to me and I listened to him, in the end he said that he’d think about what I’d said but doubted if it would change his opinion. I said that if he doubted it beforehand it was unlikely he’d really consider it with an open mind. He looked at me for a few seconds and said ‘hmm, we’ll see’ At that point we went our seperate ways. I doubt if he changed his mind much but we at least attempted to have a rational dialogue.

How often do you do that Toad? How many conversations have you had like that with devout muslims, in real life?

Fawning sycophants does appear to best describe yourself and TCS in relation to most of your comments in any thread in which Mr K Kelly has been discussed. If you do ever get around to printing words on the back of your team Jackets, may I suggest something that includes the words ‘Brown’ and ‘Tongue’?

With regard to the collapse of the Towers: it’s been a long time since I’ve discussed it with anyone, here or anywhere else, my opinion initially was that they had to have been brought down by explosives, but that changed a long time ago to: “It’s impossible to be sure one way or the other, and what does it matter anyway at this point?”

Post Modified: 02/05/08 19:54:20

R326443
2 years ago
silverback

“_It’s impossible to be sure one way or the other, and what does it matter anyway at this point_?”

huzzah!


R326444
2 years ago
tomtom

:-)


R326445
2 years ago
Faxanadu

al qaeda moles in the highest echelons of fbi and cia?

High enough to direct the flow of investigation, and blackout all the warnings of impending attack coming from employed servants of both agencies?

Absurd. The al qaeda moles in the highest echelons of the fbi and cia ARE fbi and cia.

Damned pyramid schemes getcha every time.

Post Modified: 02/05/08 19:34:24

R326446
2 years ago
tomtom

SB I added to that post since your reply, but most of it was meant for Toad, and possibly for phennec as well

Post Modified: 02/05/08 19:49:12

R326447
2 years ago
tomtom

al qaeda moles in the highest echelons of fbi and cia?

I know, hilarious notion ain’t it?


R326449
2 years ago
527794598

You guys are so weird.


R326451
2 years ago
tomtom

Stephen it was when you posted R326403 I thought to myself “Shit what the hell are you arguing with this guy for, you appear to think almost identical things with regard to almost every topic discussed here.”

Why didn’t ya just say that at the start?? :-)

Post Modified: 02/05/08 19:48:20

R326453
2 years ago
Namaste_Rich

Silverjust for the record, i don’t buy the fact that the towers went down on their own.

btw, i am pretty sure that some form of explosives were used.

AnthonyReally!? Wow.

Silverto quote my good friend Anthony, just my two centivos.

It seems to me, a so called good friend would already know where you’re coming from on that issue…

— why act so surprised?

Post Modified: 02/05/08 20:04:31

R326454
2 years ago
mkane

Thank you Silverback.

The “truthers” you speak of (that I do not consider myself one of, and went to great lengths to distance myself from) the Jihadists you speak of, and the Liberal media honchos you speak of seem to have something in common —-

—- differing forms of powerful delusion based upon world view.

As far as collusion goes, there is definitely collusion at the top of this and the evidence is very clear on that. Think George HW Bush meeting with Shafig Bin Laden on 9/11 in D.C., watching the attacks unfold on TV together.

Think Yasin Al Qadi – Saudi terrorist financier – who owned Ptech, which was a highly advanced software on all military and government computers, including Air Force and Secret Service. Qadi has ties to Cheney.

Do you think Saudi terror financiers get their software to infiltrate the entire American government with their enterprise architecture software by accident?

Saudi elites — American elites — with similar agendas on the opposite end of the same coin.

This was a long, long thread. Thank you Stephen. I’m done

:)


R326456
2 years ago
tomtom

gee someone actually paying attention to one of Anthony’s opinions!! I mean, why bother?


R326457
2 years ago
Namaste_Rich

The dude wears Kevlar in public.

I think he may knwo something we don’t. :)


R326459
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

I’ve got a great idea…

...let’s talk about Israel involvement.

hahahahahahahaha

R326463
2 years ago
silverback

why act so surprised

we haven’t discussed this in a long time, it was the first time i actually said that.


R326469
2 years ago
Truthcansuk

Tom – If you do ever get around to printing words on the back of your team Jackets, may I suggest something that includes the words ‘Brown’ and ‘Tongue’?

Waaaaaaaaaay ahead of you, bro…


R326470
2 years ago
GND

Maybe you two should talk more? Go out and grab a beer together sometime soon. Is Anthony’s family life getting in the way of your friendship? You should be happy for him that he has someone. Try to get on the same page and show a unified front. This type of thing could drive a wedge in the gnn community.

Post Modified: 02/05/08 20:45:50

R326476
2 years ago
tomtom

TCS – awesome


R326481
2 years ago
amrev360

Andrews Airforce Base Silver.. just look at a map.. look at its proximity to the Pentagon. look at how NORAD was ordered to stand down. Sure some Saudis may have been manipulated into that mess called 911 but the truth is they don’t deserve credit. There isn’t a bird in the sky that the American military is not aware of… we have forced crop dusters to land when the FAA called for all planes to stay on the ground.

Furthermore.. do you really believe that a couple of guys with box cutters could take on a plane full of people? Have you even used a box cutter? You would have to be a damned ninja to take on a plane full of people with a box cutter!

These guys weren’t exactly weightlifters.. they were boozing at a strip club the night before! That isn’t A-Game! The FBI was keeping tabs on several of the hijackers before 911!

I don’t buy it at all. No offense to my fellow muslims out there.. but muslims were made the patsies here.


R326486
2 years ago
Number5Toad

you mean coming from someone that’s actually met people from al Mujharoun, unlike someone like, say, yourself, you hasn’t?

big assumption. also, bad grammar, but i don’t like to point that kind of thing out unless…oh, oops.

but no, i meant that your flailing response to stephen about “well how was i to know what you meant when you mention this guy and then say this and then say that and even though you didn’t say that SPECIFICALLY it was pretty clearly implied that blah blah blah”

...is hilarious, considering the source – the source being you, who freaked out on me for no real reason after i sort of assumed you were talking to me, in a post you wrote which was addressed to me, and included several of the same kind of vagaries.

How often do you do that Toad? How many conversations have you had like that with devout muslims, in real life?

i spent two years in service to a community populated almost entirely with Muslim immigrants from Africa. i’ve had more of those kinds of conversations than i’d really care to count.

why does that matter, anyway?

Fawning sycophants does appear to best describe yourself and TCS in relation to most of your comments in any thread in which Mr K Kelly has been discussed.

mmhmm. maybe you should try reading the words i’m actually typing in any given thread, instead of filling in what you want me to be saying? radical idea, i know, but it’s worth a try, at least once.

It’s impossible to be sure one way or the other, and what does it matter anyway at this point?

hey look, we agree on something! awesome! wanna buy one of our team jackets?

Post Modified: 02/05/08 23:22:33

R326489
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

It’s impossible to be sure one way or the other, and what does it matter anyway at this point?

I’m not so sure it’s impossible to know.
I don’t think anyone could argue that there’s been any real attempt to find out.

And it matters a lot to me.
As we’ve seen with Sb’s experience, the towers are powerful evidence of prior knowledge and complicity.

So I don’t really agree…but can I still have a jacket?


R326490
2 years ago
Number5Toad

yeah, but we’re gonna have to put the patch on the arm instead of the back…


R326491
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

Make it a red armband.
I like Ron Paul after all…


R326492
2 years ago
Number5Toad

mister, you’ve got yourself a deal!


R326495
2 years ago
Faxanadu

9/11 was an inside job?


R326497
2 years ago
silverback

thank God you people have such a finely tuned sense of humor. fuck the end of this shit (barring N5T’s reply to tomtom) was funny. lolz. TCS, you rule. do i get a C on mine????


R326500
2 years ago
tmcmistress

Thanks for this, Silver; great blog. I’m going to spread this around a bit, I think…


R326501
2 years ago
anthony

This has turned into a doosie. I don’t, for the record, rule out inside collusion in 9/11. I just haven’t seen any solid evidence proving the kind of rabid certaintly most truthers seem to have. That’s my main contribution to the debate.

Mike, what’s up with the making shit up off the top of your head? I think Liam’s “wrong?” Where did that come from? And this:

It almost seems like an internal battle between the guy who used to work for the NY Times and MTV and the guy who left those organizations due to some sort of moral dilemma he couldn’t work out.

I’m loving the armchair psychoanalysis, unfortunately, it’s, like a lot of your theories, not based on facts. I was never an employee of either, so I don’t know how I could “leave” them.

In Aftermath, we asked a series of unanswered questions. In my opinion, I think a lot of them have been answered, with many really important ones (and ones we didn’t ask) still unresolved. That’s why I support serious investigations into 9/11, and think that the obsession with conspiracy theories like WTC 7 are huge distractions. That’s my take on 9/11 in a nutshell.

Post Modified: 02/06/08 00:03:55

R326502
2 years ago
Number5Toad

This has turned into a doosie

shocker


R326503
2 years ago
FloydAnderson

Maybe light up a j and check this out:

Listen to the entire interview »

Post Modified: 02/05/08 23:25:55

R326504
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

Post Modified: 02/06/08 00:56:07

R326505
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

lol @ Willy Nelson

“...din’t get hit by nuthin’...”

awesome

Post Modified: 02/06/08 01:20:22

R326506
2 years ago
Faxanadu

Floyd, the entire broadcast of that particular aj show is 100% awesome.

wtf?


R326509
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

Time for the mighty Seven WTC7s post!!!11

Post Modified: 02/06/08 00:31:26

R326517
2 years ago
EGisJUICE

Of course, I realized, the entire theory of 9/11 as an inside job is predicated on the belief that they couldn’t.

I think it’s more based on the belief that they didn’t, not that they couldn’t.

The fact that the major proponent, and supporter (as well as the source of most of the supporting “evidence” ) of the “19 fanatic muslims did it” story is the US government, alone makes it unreliable, and that’s before one factors the holes in the “official version” the US puts forward into it.

Given their track record when it comes to telling the public the truth (especially in regard to gaining support for its policies) it’s not crazy for someone to think whatever version the US government puts out is bullshit.

Sorry if people not buying the story a liar puts out pisses off Muslim radicals, but for the most part, the people who don’t buy the “muslims did it” version of 9/11 don’t buy it due to the source of the info, not because of some kind of superiority complex that makes people think “muslims r 2 dum & unable to do 9/11s, so Amerikas must have did it”.

Maybe some people (like me) think that 19 radical muslims acting alone didn’t do 9/11 because that version is full of shit, and not because Muslims couldn’t do 9/11 because they were Muslims. Not placing the blame the same place that the entity that has used 9/11 to justify any and all of it’s controversial actions has, and thinking that same entity may actually be responsible for carrying out the 9/11 attacks is not “self-centered” even if it gets labeled as being so.

People are quick to label those who don’t buy the official version of 9/11 as conspiracy theorists, and what they think happened as “conspiracy theories” should remember that the “official version” of what happened on 9/11 and who was responsible for it, is itself by definition a conspiracy theory.


R326521
2 years ago
EGisJUICE

That’s why I support serious investigations into 9/11, and think that the obsession with conspiracy theories like WTC 7 are huge distractions.

What planet are you on? Seriously.
WTC 7 did collapse on 9/11. After not having a 747 full of fuel fly into it. Yes?

Since unlike the towers no planes flew into it, it shouldn’t be ignored that WTC7 collapsed or dismissed as “conspiracy theories” and “distractions” since part of any serious 9/11 investigation should be to investigate why all the buildings that collapsed on 9/11 did so.

For the most part you don’t even need to explain why a building that was hit by a 747 full of fuel collapsed, for most people, it collapsed because a 747 full of fuel flew into it.

It’s a lot harder to explain the collapse that doesn’t have that ready made conclusion built into it. Which is exactly why the collapse of WTC 7 is, and shouldn’t be ignored.


R326524
2 years ago
silverback

It’s a lot harder to explain the collapse that doesn’t have that ready made conclusion built into it. Which is exactly why the collapse of WTC 7 is, and shouldn’t be ignored.

well put…


R326526
2 years ago
tomtom

big assumption. also, bad grammar, but i don’t like to point that kind of thing out unless … oh, oops

wasting my time expecting anything more than a rather pathetic
grammar-Godwin’s rule-reply it seems. So that would be your way of saying “No, I never have met anyone from al Mujharoun” then? Al-Mujharoun being one of the topics under discussion in this and other related threads.

you, who freaked out on me for no real reason after i sort of assumed you were talking to me

me/ rolls eyes at Toad, and sighs a deep sigh_

lol, ‘freaked out”! Lollercaust. You’re cute when your hyperbolic. Next you’ll be claiming I pose an ‘existential threat to you’ or that I ‘Won’t be happy until I drive you into the sea’ or somesuch

i spent two years in service to a community populated almost entirely with Muslim immigrants from Africa. i’ve had more of those kinds of conversations than i’d really care to count

why does that matter, anyway?

excellent – we have at least established that, unlike the vast majority of people commenting in these forums, you’re not totally ignorant when it comes to the matters being discussed here. I now feel it wasn’t a complete waste of time and effort interacting with you in these forums, and I have you to thank for it, dear Toad.

wanna buy one of our team jackets?

no thanks, I’m saving all my hard earned cash in order to purchase a new flak jacket for Anthony, the one he’s wearing looks a little tatty to me. They offered me a velour covered one, but I said to myself “I’ll bet Anthony’s more of a Velvet than a Velour man when he’s roughing-it ‘in the field’”.

It’ll be worth it just to see the smile on the little tyke’s face as he struts around lower Manhattan wearing his new-pride-and-joy. If you’re in NY could you take a few photo’s of it for me? I’ll put them next to the photos of the all the little African kids I sponsor, it’ll look good there.

Post Modified: 02/06/08 06:46:47

R326531
2 years ago
tomtom

It©s a lot harder to explain the collapse that doesn©t have that ready made conclusion built into it. Which is exactly why the collapse of WTC 7 is, and shouldn©t be ignored.

I agree.

Now, any chance of getting one of those jackets on credit, Toad?


R326541
2 years ago
misanthropic

I just tattooed it on my neck. I’m hardcore.

And I love bitter trolls.


R326552
2 years ago
tomtom

me too, I usually toast them under a medium-hot grill for five minutes, then I add some sliced tomatoes and add a sprinkle of ground black pepper and fresh basil. The sweetness of the tomatoes is a nice counterpoint to the bitterness of the trolls. Yumm, delicious. How do you take yours?


R326567
2 years ago
antiguanoctane

how many haters of america did this event create, alone?

while i have toyed with siding with the alex joneses of the world, i will never buy it.

1/ bush and crew have proven so inept at so many of the things they do, it is simply not possible to pull off something of this magnitude without legit leaks springing up after all these years. there has never been a smoking gun and with all the energy spent (wasted?) no one can definitively confirm the conspiracy.

2/ why collapse the buildings anyhow? wouldn’t the simple act of smashing multiple airplanes in the towers not be action enough to engage terrorists? why knock them down? why go to all that extra work to execute and cover up?

you’re absolutely right, silverback.
while my experience with muslims has comparatively been limited to friends and close business associates in multi-racial, toronto canada, alex jones’ dismissal of the muslim people’s capabilities and motives, is 100%, pure, american ignorance.


R326570
2 years ago
antiguanoctane

how many haters of america did this event create, alone?

while i have toyed with siding with the alex joneses of the world, i will never buy it.

1/ bush and crew have proven so inept at so many of the things they do, it is simply not possible to pull off something of this magnitude without legit leaks springing up after all these years. there has never been a smoking gun and with all the energy spent (wasted?) no one can definitively confirm the conspiracy.

2/ why collapse the buildings anyhow? wouldn’t the simple act of smashing multiple airplanes in the towers not be action enough to engage terrorists? why knock them down? why go to all that extra work to execute and cover up?

you’re absolutely right, silverback.
while my experience with muslims has comparatively been limited to friends and close business associates in multi-racial, toronto canada, alex jones’ dismissal of the muslim people’s capabilities and motives, is 100%, pure, american ignorance.


R326569
2 years ago
antiguanoctane

...

Post Modified: 02/06/08 10:55:07

R326575
2 years ago
Truthcansuk

1/ bush and crew have proven so inept at so many of the things they do,

Inept at what? Seems to me they’ve played the planet like a harp…


R326577
2 years ago
antiguanoctane

TCS,

naw… can’t be bothered. it would only steal precious time i have left on the planet for no purpose.


R326580
2 years ago
Truthcansuk

I totally understand…


R326596
2 years ago
antiguanoctane

thanks for understanding.

i’m afraid i am suffering debate fatigue.
i am looking at all the time spent debating on this site and others and am beginning to envision it as a massive black hole of people’s time.

are messageboards the new television?
think of all the things that could have been built, accomplished, achieved in the time we all go on and on, within these messageboards.

i am beginning to think the internet is the conspiracy.

back in my old punk rawk days, a band called DOA outta vancouver had a saying i endear to this day: talk minus action = zero.

i just hope folk apply some time to action.
and me? i do, but not enough. so its less debate and more of the other.

cheers.

Post Modified: 02/06/08 13:41:28

R326599
2 years ago
Memnoch07

“talk minus action = zero.”

Yeah, lets overthrow the mother fucking govt already! Fuck!


R326600
2 years ago
anthony

am beginning to envision it as a massive black hole of people’s time.

Exactly. Get out and make some media peoples.


R326603
2 years ago
Memnoch07

but dont make it about how the united states government attacked new york on 911.


R326617
2 years ago
Number5Toad

wasting my time expecting anything more than a rather pathetic grammar-Godwin’s rule-reply it seems.

wow. please, grow a sense of humor ASAP.

So that would be your way of saying “No, I never have met anyone from al Mujharoun” then? Al-Mujharoun being one of the topics under discussion in this and other related threads.

no, it was my way of pointing out that you’re making a big assumption.

lol, ‘freaked out”! Lollercaust. You’re cute when your hyperbolic.

this will hopefully be my last reference to this crap because it’s tiresome.

in the other thread, while discussing the concept of suitcase nukes, you first expressed the incorrect opinion that “neo-cons” were responsible for reports regarding the missing weapons, and asked for a “reputable source” regarding their existence, which i provided. you responded to that source by talking about “crazy jihadis” and “mad muslims” and all sorts of things that “you” and “you guys” and “you people” like to reference, all contained in a post which was addressed to me. when i said “i didn’t say that”, your response was along the lines of “WELL I DIDN’T SAY YOU DID NOW DID I? ARE YOU SOME KIND OF EGOMANIAC? CAN YOU NOT READ? DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ENGLISH? WHAT A LAUGHABLE ASSUMPTION TO THINK I WAS TALKING TO YOU AFTER ADDRESSING YOU DIRECTLY!”

this after you said something about how, if you’re not given snark, you won’t give it in return.

yes, i characterize that as an unprovoked freakout.

in the future, maybe you can – as i’ve asked – just try to respond to what i’ve said, and keep your assumptions or whatever grudge you may have against me out of these discussions. i’d really appreciate it, as it would mean less of this kind of pointless drama.

Next you’ll be claiming I pose an ‘existential threat to you’ or that I ‘Won’t be happy until I drive you into the sea’ or somesuch

eyes…rolling into skull…risking permanent damage to vision….

you’re cute when you’re something something

excellent – we have at least established that, unlike the vast majority of people commenting in these forums, you’re not totally ignorant when it comes to the matters being discussed here. I now feel it wasn’t a complete waste of time and effort interacting with you in these forums, and I have you to thank for it, dear Toad.

great. of course since i never actually said anything about Muslims or Al-Mujharoun or Khalid Kelly or, really, anything even tangentially related to any of those subjects to you, i’m still confused as to why it mattered in the first place. again, responding to what i type, instead of to something something, look, you know the drill by now.

Now, any chance of getting one of those jackets on credit, Toad?

credit is counter-revolutionary. cash up front or no deal.

Post Modified: 02/06/08 14:39:53

R326649
2 years ago
tomtom

me/ ** dude, seriously, some people are trying to sleep around here, shhh **
Post Modified: 02/06/08 17:18:31

R326652
2 years ago
tomtom

As a great philosopher once said,

‘Don’t go all fetch on us . . .’

cash up front or no deal.

Capitalist swine!

Post Modified: 02/06/08 17:25:24

R326654
2 years ago
tomtom

wow. please, grow a sense of humor ASAP.

.....roger that, November-Five-Tango … over an’ out



R326661
2 years ago
misanthropic

I’m already boredbored with this new troll.


R326666
2 years ago
Faxanadu

antiguano – while i have toyed with siding with the alex joneses of the world

Why do you have to pick a side? I think we’re all relatively aware of what we face.
People go about fighting it in different ways. Aren’t we ultimately on the same side?


R326667
2 years ago
misanthropic

I don’t know, are you on my side?


R326676
2 years ago
Faxanadu

depends, are you on the red or the blue team?

Seriously though, none of us want to live in a Totalitarian society am I right?.
We all want clean air and water, peace and relative freedom don’t we?
An end to organized murder and institutionalized corruption?
Shouldn’t we focus more attention on the things we agree on?
Is it my turn to get shot now?
Divided we fall.


R326678
2 years ago
misanthropic

I’m on my team.


R326682
2 years ago
Number5Toad

i’m sure by “great philosopher” you mean “raving drunk”, and by “capitalist swine” you mean….well, no, yeah, capitalist swine fits pretty well there.

also i would have preferred November-Fetch-Tango for nostalgic purposes.

butt thanks for the hint, i thought you seemed awfully familiar ;)

i guess you can have a jacket now

R326685
2 years ago
tomtom

was Fennec a ‘raving drunk’? Well that explains a lot!


R326687
2 years ago
tomtom

i guess you can have a jacket now

thank you!


R326691
2 years ago
thisguy

“Well that explains a lot!”

Such as?


R326696
2 years ago
tomtom

do some research

Post Modified: 02/06/08 21:59:21

R326701
2 years ago
antiguanoctane

once again, the essence is lost to the splitting of the hairs.

again, naw…


R326703
2 years ago
misanthropic

Fucking quibberdicks,


R326712
2 years ago
tomtom

Pakistan Taliban declare ceasefire

[-] Text [+]

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) – Pakistani Taliban fighters announced a ceasefire on Wednesday after months of clashes with security forces and suicide attacks across the northwest of the country.

Military spokesmen were not immediately available for comment but security officials in South Waziristan said there have been contacts with militants in tribal strongholds of the Pakistani Taliban.

“The government has shown leniency over the past four or five days,” Maulvi Omar, a spokesman for Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan, or the Taliban Movement of Pakistan, told Reuters by telephone.

“That’s why we are declaring a ceasefire.”

Omar said the decision to call a ceasefire was taken at a shura, or council meeting, chaired by Baitullah Mehsud, the leader of the Pakistani Taliban and a prime suspect in the assassination of pro-Western opposition leader Benazir Bhutto in late December.

Nearly 300 people have died in militant-related violence since the start of the year, including six killed on Monday when a suicide bomber rammed his motorcycle into a military bus near army headquarters in Rawalpindi, the garrison town next door to the capital, Islamabad.

Growing insecurity has raised fears about nuclear-armed Pakistan’s stability as it heads towards an election on February 18 that was delayed after Bhutto’s assassination.

The Waziristan region is regarded as a sanctuary for al Qaeda and Taliban militants who fled there after U.S.-led forces ousted them from Afghanistan in late 2001.

Pakistani troops have been trying for years, with varying degrees of success, to clear these areas of militants, who also attack Western and Afghan government troops across the border.


R326713
2 years ago
tomtom

,,,

Post Modified: 02/06/08 21:49:40

R326717
2 years ago
GWHunta

In Aftermath, we asked a series of unanswered questions. In my opinion, I think a lot of them have been answered, with many really important ones (and ones we didn’t ask) still unresolved. That’s why I support serious investigations into 9/11, and think that the obsession with conspiracy theories like WTC 7 are huge distractions. That’s my take on 9/11 in a nutshell.
~anthony

WTC 7 a huge distraction?

Post Modified: 02/06/08 22:23:01

R326720
2 years ago
GWHunta

R326721
2 years ago
misanthropic

Another take is Dan Rather sputtling along in prime time? Okay…


R326722
2 years ago
GWHunta

This Counterpunch article was a huge distraction.

Counterpunch Special Report: Debunking the Myths of 9/11


R326723
2 years ago
thisguy

“do some research”

What’s your point?


R326725
2 years ago
tomtom

yawn . . . . you’re tiresome.

Ok – I’ll play. What was your point in even posting that last comment?


R326727
2 years ago
GWHunta

My point is that the collapse of WTC 7 remains without a plausible explanation nearly seven years post incident.

Distraction?


R326728
2 years ago
tomtom

dude – I got your point – It wasn’t you I was talking to. It was probably phennec


R326729
2 years ago
tomtom

R326732
2 years ago
GWHunta

I got that.

thisguy dropped and I ran with it.

Peace,


R326733
2 years ago
misanthropic

I don’t think it’s news. In fact you’ve, and I’m painting the truthers here with a fucking broad brush, trumpeted that one out so many times I’m numb to it. I don’t care that a small building burning for hours inside an area raining burning humans collapsed. Nor am I concerned that some Jew’s remarks have been twisted into a caricature. The evidence is not that damning.


R326734
2 years ago
thisguy

“thisguy dropped and I ran with it.”

Your running with it seems preferable to someone obsessing about a phone call someone he didn’t know made to someone else he didn’t know 2 years ago.

Post Modified: 02/06/08 23:11:09

R326738
2 years ago
tomtom

yes, phennec, whatever you say . . . . you asked a question and were given an answer. I’m sorry the answer was not the one you expected, but it unfortunately happens to be the answer to the question you asked.

By rights it is November-Fetch-Tango you should be addressing your comments to as he’s the one that made a (possibly erroneous) connection between you and the phrase ‘raving drunk’. I merely repeated, in the form of a question, his (possibly erroneous) statement.

Post Modified: 02/06/08 23:25:31

R326739
2 years ago
GWHunta

My good then.

Peace,


R326740
2 years ago
thisguy

Whatever. To answer your question: I don’t drink.


R326742
2 years ago
tomtom

Then if I were you I’d get onto my internetz lawyer about bringing an internetz lawsuit against November-Fetch-Tango for slandering your hitherto impeccable character


R326744
2 years ago
silverback

fennec?


R326745
2 years ago
thisguy

yes?


R326747
2 years ago
tomtom

R326751
2 years ago
CylonCowboy

I don’t think it’s news. In fact you’ve, and I’m painting the truthers here with a fucking broad brush, trumpeted that one out so many times I’m numb to it.

No, you just continue to ignore it.

I don’t care that a small building burning for hours inside an area raining burning humans collapsed.

Dude, it was 47 stories high. It was only small compared to the towers.
So what it was burning. Can you cite an example of another steel framed high rise collapsing due to fire? Or was it the human remains that did it?

WTC7 collapsed in under 7 seconds. That’s around 7 floors a second.
When a mall in South Korea collapsed due to overloading it took nearly 20 seconds. It had 5 floors.
Unless you can explain that then you should concede that WTC7 is a major anomaly.

Nor am I concerned that some Jew’s remarks have been twisted into a caricature.

WTF? Precisely quoted you mean?

The evidence is not that damning.

Explain the partially evaporated structural steel recovered from building 7 then.

Post Modified: 02/07/08 00:09:32

R326752
2 years ago
misanthropic

No.


R326753
2 years ago
CylonCowboy


R326946
2 years ago
Marklar

———But there is also a Muslim side to the equation and until the 911 “truth” movement takes that into account… that there are millions of Muslims angry enough, ready enough, able enough to execute these kinds of operations… and imputes that into the formula, they will always be walking around trying to sell a half-baked cake—-

Able enough and angry enough – true but competent enough? Don’t make me laugh. While they may be competent as anybody in the west you are assuming:

– They were competant enough to make Norad stand down

- They were competent enough to make the US gov hold excercises that simulated the exact same attacks on the exact same day as both 9/11 and 7/7.

-They were competant enough to wire all 3 WTC buildings for explosive demolition without getting
caught since the towers COULD NOT have fallen into their own footprints at near freefall speed otherwise.

-They were competent enough to call the FBI off their tail despite active investigations.

-They were competent enough to convince the US government to dispose of all physical evidence as soon as possible.

-They were competent enough to delay all investigation into the incident and to make sure the investigation was woefully underfunded and stonewalled, to a degree unprecedented in US history.

They were competent enough to execute high speed maneuvers that professional pilots claim to be nearly impossible despite being incompetent in piloting a Cessna.

Your idea of how competent these people were leaves them looking rather god-like if one discounts any involvement by the US gov.

As for Israeli involvement, it is commonly known among 911 truthers that the Mossad likely had a big hand in the attacks considering the FACT that Israeli “art students” (actually Mossad agents were caught red handed filming and celebrating the attacks. 911 truthers tend to not bring up the Israeli connection because anyone who suggests that the Israeli government is in any way wrong or bad are automatically smeared as racist/anti-semitic by psychotic zionists.

The US government has admited to funding al-queda groups to attack Iran, but you would have us believe that al-queda operates independently of the US government.

Face it they would not need to be anything special in order to crash a couple of planes into skyscrapers but what ACTUALLY occured on 911 is far beyond their means unless operatives within the US gov were involved.

That some muslims don’t like credit for the attacks being taken away from them is proof of exactly NOTHING.

Sounds like you are generally on our side but lacking in the depth of understanding of the facts to make a rational assesment of the situation. A few thousand hours of analyzing the facts related to 911 is required before you can even call yourself a 911 neophyte. Keep trying.


R326995
2 years ago
Chickenma1

Well said, Marklar. Which leads to a conumdrum – how to expunge Israeli influence over our government without, in fact, being Jew-paranoid. It has to start with cutting all monetary conflicts of interest with the weapons trade (by ending it), the war machine (by ending it), and lobbiests’ holds over elected officials (by ending it).


R327343
2 years ago
Beagle17

R327346
2 years ago
Beagle17

oops.
nothing to say yet, c’ept what a fricking long thread! I may read some of it now…

Post Modified: 02/11/08 11:00:41

R327399
2 years ago
bandus

hey stephen, now this is fennec. Please don’t tell Banphony this time. The minute and a half it takes to make a new profile is 120 seconds I will never get back.


R327422
2 years ago
a_pretty_rainbow

Aren’t we ultimately on the same side

the side of gullible alex jones lolzers?


R327567
2 years ago
tomtom

A love letter to Alex Jones from the BBC?

Gladio agent Vincenzo Vinciguerra testified, “You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple: to force…the public to turn to the state to ask for greater security.” Person in the street shrugs: “Security comes first….”

3-part Video from the BBC about Operation Gladio and the Red Brigades in Italy. The Red Brigades have already been mentioned by GNNers SilverBack, and Watson, without any reference to Operation Gladio
http://www.takeoverworld.info/vid.html#gladio

Strategy_of_Tension_Operation_Gladio.mp3 15 min audio

Post Modified: 02/12/08 15:26:24

R327621
2 years ago
tomtom

Mullah Omar – Taliban no Threat to US

The reclusive leader of the Taliban said Monday the Islamic militia is not a threat to other countries and he called on citizens of NATO nations to pressure their governments to withdraw troops from Afghanistan.

“This is our right to defend our country. We are not a threat to other countries. But we have to use our rights when our country is occupied by foreign forces,” Mujahid quoted Omar as saying. “We want the people of other countries to pressure their governments not to send troops to Afghanistan.”

But I thought dem dere Taliban were all mad-as-f*&k Jihadists, ready to kill anything that moved. Silly me :)


R327715
2 years ago
GWHunta

While many snicker at the “ravings” of the Alex Jones crowd, the mainstream internet media (_MSN Money_) is pushing some off-the-hinge theories of their own.

This one’s a doozy.

Did terrorists cause the housing mess?

The link may not seem obvious at first. But if you look at the Sept. 11 plotters’ goals — and at what has happened in the US since the attacks — it’s hardly far-fetched.
by ~Scott Burns

Totally unbelievable unless you’ve arrived at the realization that the “Sept. 11 plotters” weren’t Islamic extremists, but empire building globalists.

Sometimes no Peace

Post Modified: 02/13/08 09:47:48

R328065
2 years ago
tomtom

your link don’t link

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Banking/HomeFinancing/DidTerroristsCauseTheHousingMess.aspx

dem crafty muslims – they forced banks to make bad loans deliberately!! Feindshly clever


R328069
2 years ago
GWHunta

The link works for me.

Scott Burns aka “the anti-Truth”

Peace,


R328073
2 years ago
tomtom

The link works for me.

me too now. Maybe it was the Illuminati prevented it from working the first time?!?!1111


R328074
2 years ago
tomtom

Scott Burns aka “Shit-Gobbler”


R330079
2 years ago
librarian

deleted post-thought it hadn’t posted (such a long thread) and now it is more detailed.

Post Modified: 02/28/08 13:24:21

R330109
2 years ago
librarian

First off…..hey to all the oldies but goodies!
It’s been a long time since I visited here-and the coincidence of today’s visit is chilling.
I was searching the gnn archives in the wayback machine only to discover that:

Robots.txt Retrieval Exclusion.

We’re sorry, access to http://www.google.com/custom?q=silverback&sa.x=0&sa.y=0&sa=Search&cof=GIMP%3A%23FF0000%3BT%3A%23CCCCCC%3BLW%3A740%3BALC%3A%23FF0000%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.guerrillanews.com%2Fimages%2Flogo_google.gif%3BGFNT%3A%23CCCCCC%3BLC%3A%23669966%3BLH%3A100%3BBGC%3A%23000000%3BAH%3Aleft%3BVLC%3A%23669966%3BGL%3A2%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.guerrillanews.com%3BGALT%3A%23999999%3BAWFID%3Ad75c7b3dbf262dde%3B&domains=www.guerrillanews.com&sitesearch=www.guerrillanews.com has been blocked by the site owner via robots.txt.
Read more about robots.txt
See the site’s robots.txt file.
Try another request or click here to search for all pages on google.com/custom?q=silverback&sa.x=0&sa.y=0&sa=Search&cof=GIMP:%23FF0000;T:%23CCCCCC;LW:740;ALC:%23FF0000;L:http://www.guerrillanews.com/images/logo_google.gif;GFNT:%23CCCCCC;LC:%23669966;LH:100;BGC:%23000000;AH:left;VLC:%23669966;GL:2;S:http://www.guerrillanews.com;GALT:%23999999;AWFID:d75c7b3dbf262dde;&domains=www.guerrillanews.com&sitesearch=www.guerrillanews.com
See the FAQs for more info and help, or contact us.

Needless to say, I was greatly disappointed that all searches are blocked by the site owner.

And I also found that the archives are completely out of order and missing large gaps.
This cannot be blamed on gnn, but the search block is very disappointing.
Sadly, it raises suspicions in the switchover.
Measuring the good with the bad, the old gnn had some treasures.

In any case, I was searching for some research that a group of us did some time back (as long as five years ago) that is now in the news.
Of course this research was on 9/11 and San Diego. So- I figured this would be the most appropriate spot to ask why we can’t search the archives? I spent over an hour trying to hunt it down without the search utility, but I am afraid it may never have been indexed.

So-why are the archives incomplete (if you know)?
Is there anyway to rescue some old data? But even if we could it probably wouldn’t be necessary because I was looking to link to the info. Too bad ;(
It does appear that after the move to the new gnn site there is a much higher frequency of indexing done by the bots.
okay…..that’s all – resume your debate ;-)
Nice to pop in…..
My best to all the gnners!!!!!!!
will check back to see if any helpful info is offered
thx

Post Modified: 02/28/08 13:31:46

R330189
2 years ago
misanthropic

I blame Sarcasm.


R330192
2 years ago
sisyphus

Hi lib. You should pm silverback with your questions because he is unlikely to ever see this post.


R333070
2 years ago
FloydAnderson

R337706
2 years ago
silverback

interesting development with this, Qaeda #2 Ayman al-Zawahri today invoked the same argument i mentioned in this blog. namely that theories which place responsibility for 9/11 totally within the US denigrate Islamic fighters. here’s an excerpt from the article:

One questioner asked about the theory that has circulated in the Middle East and elsewhere that Israel was behind the 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

Al-Zawahri accused Hezbollah’s Al-Manar television of starting the rumor. “The purpose of this lie is clear — (to suggest) that there are no heroes among the Sunnis who can hurt America as no else did in history. Iranian media snapped up this lie and repeated it,” he said.


R337731
2 years ago
Faxanadu

what ever became of tomtom?

Post Modified: 04/23/08 03:32:25

R337735
2 years ago
anthony

I highly recommend people look at this page: http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_damage.html

Here’s some of the text – w/o photos and hot links:

The story…

Located one block from the Twin Towers, WTC7 was barely scratched by the collapse of those structures.
Page 49
Barrie Zwicker, Towers of Deception

Our take…

It’s often claimed that WTC7 suffered no significant damage from the collapse of the towers. However, some 9/11 photos show debris that appears to be heading for the skyscraper (the light-brown building in the shot below)..

WTC7Hit1

The angle of shot makes it difficult to say where that might hit (see this page for another view), but reports from the scene do suggest significant damage.

Battalion Chief John Norman
Special Operations Command – 22 years

From there, we looked out at 7 World Trade Center again. You could see smoke, but no visible fire, and some damage to the south face. You couldn’t really see from where we were on the west face of the building, but at the edge of the south face you could see that it was very heavily damaged.
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/norman.html

A NIST photo may expand on that damage “at the edge of the south face”.

WTC7Corner

Page 17
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC%20Part%20IIC%20-%20WTC%207%20Collapse%20Final.pdf

Chris Boyle expands on what he saw when he viewed the south side, not just the corner.

Captain Chris Boyle
Engine 94 – 18 years

Boyle: ...on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.

Firehouse: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?

Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.

Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?

Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day.
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/boyle.html

Another report talks of damage that suggested collapse was a real possibility:

...Captain Varriale told Chief Coloe and myself that 7 World Trade Center was badly damaged on the south side and definitely in danger of collapse. Chief Coloe said we were going to evacuate the collapse zone around 7 World Trade Center, which we did.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110462.PDF

Fire chief Daniel Nigro says further assessment of the damage indicated that it was severe:

The biggest decision we had to make was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severely damaged [WTC Building 7]. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building’s integrity was in serious doubt.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?id=1521846767-634

Another fireman reported damage that progressed as the day wore on.

Deputy Chief Peter Hayden
Division 1 – 33 years

...also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

Firehouse: Was there heavy fire in there right away?
Hayden: No, not right away, and that’s probably why it stood for so long because it took a while for that fire to develop. It was a heavy body of fire in there and then we didn’t make any attempt to fight it. That was just one of those wars we were just going to lose. We were concerned about the collapse of a 47-story building there. We were worried about additional collapse there of what was remaining standing of the towers and the Marriott, so we started pulling the people back after a couple of hours of surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris. We started to pull guys back because we were concerned for their safety.
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/hayden.html

So why wasn’t this damage photographed, ask people like David Ray Griffin (http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html)? If they were to show you the smoke pouring from every floor of the building, then that may make it obvious… But it could also make you question the “small and limited” fires idea, which is why shots like this aren’t shown so very often.


R337737
2 years ago
Faxanadu

whatever happened to tomtom?


R337738
2 years ago
GWHunta

OK anthony.

Been there, did that. Try this one.

Draft NIST Report on the World Trade Center Investigation

NOTE: The NIST investigation of the WTC 7 building collapse is not yet complete.

The report on the WTC 7 collapse investigation will be released in draft form for public comment and posted on this web site as soon as it is available.

Exterior damage on the SW corner doesn’t explain the collapse of building seven into its own footprint. Nor do the relatively small fires that burned within.

When the two towers came down building seven wasn’t the only building in the area subjected to damage from the debris, there were others far more severely damaged that didn’t later collapse into their own footprints.

The photos with the dust and smoke lingering in the wind shadow of building seven, portraying it as having smoke coming from every floor is misleading.

The same effect could have been photographed (and I’m betting was) in the wind shadows of surrounding buildings that didn’t have fires burning in them at all.

We’ve waited patiently for almost seven years for a viable “official” explanation of the physics explaining how building seven met its fate.

I’m not at this point going to settle for anecdotal stories from the heroes of the day, nor Popular Mechanics conjecture or “web debunker’s” ravings.

If and when the NIST ever releases a detailed report we’ll have a starting point, but the fact that this much time has elapsed without a report is indicative of problems with the presumption that there was significant enough damage from the collapse of the towers and the small fires that burned uncontrolled within seven to have brought the building down.

In the meantime I’ll go on believing that 9/11 was an inside job and that building seven was prepped for collapse and meant to have been the final resting place of flight 93.

On that note two more recommended reads:

Another Angle on the Destruction of WTC Building Seven

Counterpunch Special Report: Debunking the Myths of 9/11

Sometimes no Peace

Post Modified: 04/23/08 09:12:02

R337761
2 years ago
GWHunta

Just a little too late.

As I told zirkonyx way back in March of 2006 that later that day inspired one of my earliest blogs:

Hey Zirk, Here’s the 911 Truth for Free

But most importantly try to anticipate and fight to mitigate the next big scam, cause this one’s a done deal.

There is no answer waiting to be found on some special leaf hanging on some hidden branch.

The answers are to be found by stepping back from the trees to see the forest.

The terrorist attacks on September 11th were preventable. The people who died were sacrificed because those responsible for their protection were pursuing the goals of a much broader agenda and the 911 victims and the Trade Center Complex were deemed an acceptable loss in the larger scheme of things.

If this weren’t true, heads would have rolled.

Somebody would have been held accountable, not re-elected.

The American oligarchies are barbarians. They always have been. Those with the gold, make, break and enforce the rules.

What has changed and is changing are the “means and methods” used in how they continue to accomplish this feat.

Spend some time analyzing that.

Post Modified: 04/23/08 21:46:35

R337765
2 years ago
GWHunta

Within days of posting the blog mentioned in the previous post on March 4th, 2006, I received a letter in the mail from my 1st District Congressman Bart Stupak, who had referred some of my earlier questions and efforts to raise local public awareness on issues of interest out to Secretary Rumsfeld and sent me copies of his letters as notice to STFU.

The letter Bart sent in March 2006 made reference to some of the first work I’d posted on GNN and had faxed to Stupak’s D.C. office and all the regional offices in 1st District of northern Michigan. (see attachment on blog)

Bart’s letter to me dated March 9th, 2006, five days after my comments and blog about 9/11 included a handwritten side note making reference to two of my sons who I had brought with me to meet Congressman Stupak, when I initially pressed him to begin impeachment proceedings against President Bush in late spring 2003, after the American led invasion of Iraq failed to prompt an Iraqi response with the dreaded weapons of mass destruction the Administration had insisted they had in their possession.

Since Bart had been one of the few in Congress to have voted not to give Bush authorization for the use of force in Iraq, I had hoped at that time he would lead the charge for impeachment, when it was demonstrated that the White House had lied to the country about their motives and the need for this war and I was then certain this would prove to be the case.

Though his letter seems friendly taken at face value, it was a thinly veiled threat that you’d have to know the entire history of Congressman Stupak and I to fully understand.

The Congressman and I have been on a first name basis since early 2000, when he called me at home to comment on a website I’d put together for the 25th anniversary of the end of the Vietnam war.

He then asked and I happily gave Bart permission to use some photos on the site in his 2000 re-election campaign in hopes he might later look into and assist me with my fight against the State of Michigan Department of Corrections, as he was a former Michigan State Trooper and still receives a disability pension from the State of Michigan and heads the committee on law enforcement and has many powerful contacts in the field on local, State and federal levels.

Things didn’t go as planned back in 2000 for Bart or for me, a situation I won’t elaborate any further on in this post, but I will revisit the issue at a later date.

To make a long story short, there were bigger dogs in the fight I was pressing Bart to enter and when he was whipped into place, his wrath wasn’t for the bigger dogs, but for me who had pulled him into the fray.

My point is that the cabal with the power to pull off 9/11 was already operational and setting the stage and isn’t the invention of the current Bush administration.

Sometimes no Peace

Post Modified: 04/23/08 10:23:02

R337819
2 years ago
JustLurking

if you feel confident about them, then good. go for it. i am writing about my experience and thoughts and process. jesus.

uh, not so fast there cowboy….

you mean to say you’re like entitled to simply waltz in here like you own the place and…

umm,

well, ok, with a desire to simply express a couple things as to you’re own take and perspective and NOT have it distorted or horribly misinterpreted as meaning your entire aim and agenda rests upon having everyone else come to the same conclusions through brute force, psychological or otherwise ?... and furthermore not have to take any shit over it even if your intentions were legitimately honorable ????

ppfffstt

whoa, like back the fuck up man…

that’s like simply just wrong

:p

Post Modified: 04/23/08 18:24:15

R337845
2 years ago
Chickenma1

anthony, what a red flag. Even if severely damaged, it’s not so much that it fell, but how it fell – take a look. Doesn’t look like any stack of blocks I ever knocked over. Hmmm, and all three buildings went down like that? Trust your eyes on this one – it’s certainly enough like controlled demolition to warrant investigating that premise, which they did not.


R337846
2 years ago
GWHunta

The NIST is supposed to be exploring the possibility of controlled demolition in the case of building seven.

Might be some of the reason why we haven’t seen a report as of yet.

But then it’s only been six and a half years.

Sometimes no Peace


R338056
2 years ago
GWHunta

Greetings
or just a friendly reminder?

Post Modified: 04/25/08 10:33:02

R353986
1 year ago
Hubris

R404509
2 weeks ago
lday

at least i never wasted time mastering textile! :)

1 comment:

  1. Good to find this thread preserved and largely intact regarding some of the links. 9/11 is but one of many of the buried truths in this society.

    One of them, that should be of immediate concern with but a few short weeks before this upcoming Presidential election is the credits and deductions that Romney/Ryan are planning to remove from the tax code. The Earned Income Tax Credit is the largest anti-poverty program in the United States and this transfer of wealth from the haves to the have nots, which is likely in the range of 60 billion for 2012 is likely in jeapordy, though nobody is saying it outloud or asking the question of Romney nor Ryan in specific terms.
    Peace, but sometimes no Piece.

    ReplyDelete

Archived GNN Threads